Which IGH?

[fastpedaller]

SA 2s hub gears up for second gear but there are no cables to worry about; it used a kickback shift.
cheers

An interesting concept - are they good/reliable?

[Brucey]

SA 2s hub gears up for second gear but there are no cables to worry about; it used a kickback shift.
cheers

An interesting concept - are they good/reliable?

'unknown'. They have revised the design internally at least once, and there are hints that they have not been 100% satisfactory, such as some of the usual stockists (such as SJS) don't list them any more, but the wholesalers still do. Moulton use the hub in their TSR2 model.

I was given a new, allegedly faulty S2C hub, which I think is of the first or second revised design. I stripped it down and apart from the usual things (iffy adjustment, too little grease etc) there was only one thing wrong with it; the drag spring that actuates the coaster brake was set too tightly and made the hub feel very draggy in your hand, when turned forwards. It might have eased off in use by itself but I deburred it and adjusted its fit. The hub seemed fine then (in the hand), and the shift mechanism seems to work fine etc. too. However I have never built that particular hub into a wheel, although I have ridden other examples. Had the gear been configured to be high normal, low reduction geared, I'd have been much keener on using it.

One particularly daft feature is the locknuts for the LH hub bearing; they are both large (~22mm) so you need two large cone spanners to make the adjustment. One large and one small locknut would seem more sensible to me.

cheers

[mattsccm]

"by the time you allow for OLN, drilling of hub etc, what kind of choice do you really have?"
With at least 4 hubs, (not including complete wheels that could be broken) 3 possible frames and possibly over a dozen rims, quite a few actually. Would probably offer hubs up to frames, see what fits or can be made to fit then dig out rim.

[Brucey]

if you have a shortlist of hubs that might work do say, and I'll happily pass comment on them if I can do. What OLN will the frame accept?

cheers

[cycle tramp]

I fancy re building my commuter bike with a hub gear. The commute is 21 miles round trip, 15 on gravel , some of it muddy. I don't half get through chains, cassettes and jockey wheels. Maybe a IGH would be better. Whats worth having. Pleae don't use the R word as my budget isn't that big. Ideally disc brake but could do rim as the frame can cope with both.

Hello - any chance of a photo of your current bike? I'd really like to see your current mudguard set up

[mig]

"by the time you allow for OLN, drilling of hub etc, what kind of choice do you really have?"
With at least 4 hubs, (not including complete wheels that could be broken) 3 possible frames and possibly over a dozen rims, quite a few actually. Would probably offer hubs up to frames, see what fits or can be made to fit then dig out rim.

single speed no good? cheap!

[LuckyLuke]

I already had 3 IGH bikes. But I wanted something with a steel frame and drop bars to convert to IGH. It's surprisingly rare to find a frame that works. You'll probably need a 135 OLN, you'll need horizontal dropouts unless you're going to run a tensioner (which for me defeats the point, a bit). I looked a lot for a suitable frame/bike, and that combo was a lot less common than I thought it would be. For instance the Dawes Galaxies seemed to change from horizontal to vertical drop-outs at the same time as they went to 135 OLN. I think there might be a suitable Claude Butler. In the end I snagged a Ridgeback World Journey:

https://www.thebikelist.co.uk/2012/ridgeback/journey

But only after a lot of looking (and it's actually a bit too long for me).

There's this going on ebay ATM:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ridgeback-World-Journey-Touring-Road-Bike-56cm-Green-c-w-Stand-Lock-Mudguards/133339705933?hash=item1f0baa724d:g:CZsAAOSwBrReTrah

Hi, it's worth mentioning that dropouts other than horizontal, track style ones work for hub gears, without requiring a tensioner. See the smiley faces below.
I think the Alfines 8 & 11 are 135mm OLN. I think the Nexus 8 goes as low as 126mm OLN if not using the roller brake.

My Surly CrossCheck, and many older frames have the semi horizontal ones.
Real shame they seem quite rare these days. Makes said frames really versatile. Anyone know why they died out?

Best wishes,

Luke

[mikeymo]

I already had 3 IGH bikes. But I wanted something with a steel frame and drop bars to convert to IGH. It's surprisingly rare to find a frame that works. You'll probably need a 135 OLN, you'll need horizontal dropouts unless you're going to run a tensioner (which for me defeats the point, a bit). I looked a lot for a suitable frame/bike, and that combo was a lot less common than I thought it would be. For instance the Dawes Galaxies seemed to change from horizontal to vertical drop-outs at the same time as they went to 135 OLN. I think there might be a suitable Claude Butler. In the end I snagged a Ridgeback World Journey:

https://www.thebikelist.co.uk/2012/ridgeback/journey

But only after a lot of looking (and it's actually a bit too long for me).

There's this going on ebay ATM:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ridgeback-World-Journey-Touring-Road-Bike-56cm-Green-c-w-Stand-Lock-Mudguards/133339705933?hash=item1f0baa724d:g:CZsAAOSwBrReTrah

Hi, it's worth mentioning that dropouts other than horizontal, track style ones work for hub gears, without requiring a tensioner. See the smiley faces below.
I think the Alfines 8 & 11 are 135mm OLN. I think the Nexus 8 goes as low as 126mm OLN if not using the roller brake.

p4pb7064705.jpg

My Surly CrossCheck, and many older frames have the semi horizontal ones.
Real shame they seem quite rare these days. Makes said frames really versatile. Anyone know why they died out?

Best wishes,

Luke

All the "smiley face" drop outs are what I meant by horizontal, sorry I wasn't clear.

[Greystoke]

If you can weld or braze you can easily modify any frame to suit horizontal dropouts. Biggest problem I see is removing the rear wheel with horizontal dropouts and mudguards.

[mikeymo]

If you can weld or braze you can easily modify any frame to suit horizontal dropouts. Biggest problem I see is removing the rear wheel with horizontal dropouts and mudguards.

If you mean actual "track" drop outs, yes, that would be a real pain to do, by the side of the road, in the rain. I'm not really sure how you get the back wheel off a track bike, in fact. But I'm guessing that would be about the least suitable bike for a commuter. Is there even room for guards?

Much as I like IGH, and have four bikes like that, punctures are more problematic, compared to derailleurs. With Shimano Alfine/Nexus, you need to carry a 15mm spanner for the axle, and a 2mm allen key (or similar) to release the gear change mechanism. When you've got the wheel back on it can take a bit of fiddling to get it to line up straight. And the nuts have to be tight (I think 35nm is Shimano's spec) or it might slip. All perfectly doable in a shed or on the patio, but at the side of the road in the rain, with lorries thundering past, not so much fun. I have "tug nuts" on one of my IGH hubs to make straightening it easier, though that needs another tool to be carried. I don't ride that bike much now, but if I did I'd have Marathons or similar on it.

[Brucey]

If you can weld or braze you can easily modify any frame to suit horizontal dropouts. Biggest problem I see is removing the rear wheel with horizontal dropouts and mudguards.

Interestingly the Genesis 'flyer' has over years mutated from something that looks like a track bike (rear facing dropouts, small clearances, which you can just about fit brakes onto) into something much more like an old road frame which had been pressed into commuting service. The current model has angled forward facing dropouts of decent length and larger clearances and has thus become a more practical UK machine for winter training/commuting.



It will of course accept a simple IGH like a SA AW. I think it would even lend itself to (sensible) retro gear cable routing, i.e. with the gear cable running the length of the seatstay. I quite fancy using the upper RH rack mount (on the seatstay) as a cable stop location, and running bare cable from there. If you insist on really clean lines, you can also get a SA thumbshifter with a 27.2mm seatpost clamp; unfortunately (being meant for S3X) it won't have the correct cable pull for an AW, but other SA shifters can be grafted onto the same bracket. Apologies if this is obvious, but the benefit of running the gear cable down the seatstay (unlike the chainstay) is that the gear adjustment isn't going to run out of travel even if the wheel is moved the full length of the dropout slots.

The current SA SRF3 (which is basically a NIG AW internal inside an alloy hubshell) weighs either 970g or 1060g depending on where you look; I'd imagine that the latter weight would include the fitting kit and maybe the shifter too, but I have not checked. Anyway if you replace a fairly standard fixed gear hub (about 330g without sprocket or lockring) with a SRF3 then you are looking at a weight increase of around 700g, or just over 1-1/2lbs. So your 20lb fixie turns into a 21.5 or 22lb machine that is more practical in the hills; an absolute no-brainer if that is what you need. NB an old (pre NIG) AW internal will fit inside a current SFR3 hubshell too, as will various other internals, including ones as far back as an FW.

On bikes with rear facing dropouts you can ease rear wheel removal by attaching the mudguards to the axle itself (using brackets for this purpose, which also means that the mudguard doesn't need adjusting when the chain tension is changed). Or you can use secu-clips to make the rear mudguard QD where it needs to be.

Vertical dropouts are less trouble for bike manufacturers because the rear QR can be a cheap one, and doesn't even need to be super tight; the wheel can't pull over. Strong riders can have endless problems with pulling rear wheels over in standard dropouts; BITD it was recommended that you used serrated locknuts that bit into the frame, deliberately removed the paint from the dropouts etc, and even then it would take a very carefully adjusted QR skewer of good quality to ensure that the wheel would definitely not pull over when giving it full gas.

cheers

[mig]

If you can weld or braze you can easily modify any frame to suit horizontal dropouts. Biggest problem I see is removing the rear wheel with horizontal dropouts and mudguards.

If you mean actual "track" drop outs, yes, that would be a real pain to do, by the side of the road, in the rain. I'm not really sure how you get the back wheel off a track bike, in fact. But I'm guessing that would be about the least suitable bike for a commuter. Is there even room for guards?

Much as I like IGH, and have four bikes like that, punctures are more problematic, compared to derailleurs. With Shimano Alfine/Nexus, you need to carry a 15mm spanner for the axle, and a 2mm allen key (or similar) to release the gear change mechanism. When you've got the wheel back on it can take a bit of fiddling to get it to line up straight. And the nuts have to be tight (I think 35nm is Shimano's spec) or it might slip. All perfectly doable in a shed or on the patio, but at the side of the road in the rain, with lorries thundering past, not so much fun. I have "tug nuts" on one of my IGH hubs to make straightening it easier, though that needs another tool to be carried. I don't ride that bike much now, but if I did I'd have Marathons or similar on it.

have two commuter bikes with track ends and mudguards. neither is much of a problem if the fairy visits as they have room between the end of the dropout and the 'guard plus the tyre is down anyway so doesn't impact arrangements.

but a proper track bike frame would be a PITA given the clearances involved. i do sometimes ride one on the road but rarely to work, rarely so far that i'd be in shtuck if i got a flat and without mudguards.

[LuckyLuke]

Cheers for the explanation re vertical dropouts Brucey.
A Genesis Flyer plus 3 spd hub sounds like a tidy commuter / winter trainer. Just needs the drum dynohub front wheel...

Hi Mikeymo, did you decide whether or not to go for the SA drum front brake in the end? I'd suggest the dynamo version, for all round commuting invincibility.

[Brucey]

…..have two commuter bikes with track ends and mudguards. neither is much of a problem if the fairy visits as they have room between the end of the dropout and the 'guard plus the tyre is down anyway so doesn't impact arrangements.....

good point; this is also an issue with some forwards facing dropouts. I've not checked this in person but looking at the photos the Genesis Flyer looks built in such a way as the rear wheel won't come out forwards unless the rear tyre is deflated. Obviously you get more benefit for wheel removal (in terms of added clearance) if you use fatter tyres.

On my hack bike the chainstays are long enough to allow the wheel to come out (forwards) with the tyre still inflated, but with the mudguard in that position, it is

a) horribly strained out of round and
b) is so far away from the tyre that it provides much less protection for the chainstays and the chain itself; both get covered in rubbish PDQ.

So I have put a spacer onto the chainstay bridge, and accept that the tyre has to be almost entirely flat before the wheel will come out.

Velo Orange make a so-called 'spring thing' which is fitted to the chainstay bridge. It is meant to hold the mudguard close to the tyre in normal use, but still allow it to deflect forwards when the wheel is removed.



Provided it doesn't also allow the mudguard to flap about too much, I think it is a good idea. As it happens in the photo above, I think it is installed in such a way as it could only ever be of very limited benefit; I don't think the fitting can slide forwards with the head of the kickstand retaining bolt in the way.....

cheers

[fastpedaller]

SA 2s hub gears up for second gear but there are no cables to worry about; it used a kickback shift.
cheers

An interesting concept - are they good/reliable?

'unknown'. They have revised the design internally at least once, and there are hints that they have not been 100% satisfactory, such as some of the usual stockists (such as SJS) don't list them any more, but the wholesalers still do. Moulton use the hub in their TSR2 model.

I was given a new, allegedly faulty S2C hub, which I think is of the first or second revised design. I stripped it down and apart from the usual things (iffy adjustment, too little grease etc) there was only one thing wrong with it; the drag spring that actuates the coaster brake was set too tightly and made the hub feel very draggy in your hand, when turned forwards. It might have eased off in use by itself but I deburred it and adjusted its fit. The hub seemed fine then (in the hand), and the shift mechanism seems to work fine etc. too. However I have never built that particular hub into a wheel, although I have ridden other examples. Had the gear been configured to be high normal, low reduction geared, I'd have been much keener on using it.

One particularly daft feature is the locknuts for the LH hub bearing; they are both large (~22mm) so you need two large cone spanners to make the adjustment. One large and one small locknut would seem more sensible to me.

cheers

I've researched the SA S2 hub further, and the idea does sound good, however the big killer (for me) is the 38% jump in gearing! This means that if I want to use about a 60 inch gear, the next gear is an 84 " (likely to be too big on my Winter bike), or I have about a 60 inch gear for the higher one, meaning the low is a 43 inch (far too low, given that I live in Norfolk So I may as well stick with my single speed, rather than have a useless 'spare' gear. The alternative is to have a gear either side of my 'normal' 63", so I go 55" for bottom gear and 76" for top gear and probably end up with 2 gears I'm unhappy with. A shame, as I was quite looking forward to a new bit of kit.