TRP Spyre/HyRd and Shimano brake pulls

[mikeymo]

The saga continues. I'm not sure if I should have added this to another thread. As there are about three that sort of contain elements. Mmmm. I'll let a highly technical mod decide.

The story so far. I've got a bike with Shimano Sora shifters and Avid BB7 cable disc breaks. Never been massively impressed with braking performance (at least compared to what I expected).

So, it turns out that BB7 brakes expect road brake pull. "That seems simple enough", I hear you say. Nope turns out there at least 2 different "road" brake pulls. SRAM/Campagnolo/Shimano pre 2008, and Shimano post 2008. That's very roughly speaking. The "new" Shimano road brake pull is now called New Super SLR. But people may or may not refer to it accurately. Including Shimano. Anyways my Sora are NSSLR, the BB7s aren't really made for that, so mediocre performance.

Now then BB7s, many think, including our resident guru here, are the best cable discs. Robust, long lasting, easy to service. That would mean they would be suited to touring bikes, yes? So every so often when I looked at Spa's disc tourers, or Ridgeback's disc tourers, I thought - "why are they all using TRP Spyres, when Brucey thinks they're a bit meh?" Actually a few other people on the interwebs think the same as Brucey (long story short, they get rusty inside, and the cable fix is naff). "Why indeed?" I hear you ask. For the EXACT REASON that I've just found. BB7 and Sora (being about the last 9 x 3 you can get) don't go together.

But TRP Spyre's do. Obviously. Well, not so obviously.

Consider: https://trpcycling.com/product/spyre/ - "Works with ALL cable actuated road levers.". Really? SRAM, Campy and ALL Shimano? How? They have different pull ratios. How do they achieve that? Is there a different attachment point or something? Can't see nuffink in the install manual: https://trpcycling.com/wp-content//uploads/2017/10/2016-Spyre-PM-and-FM-Manual-06012016-Rev-B-copy-1.pdf

OK, maybe examine the Spyre's big (and pretty ugly) brother. Let's take the Hy/Rd (and I'll take the low). In one retailer's advertising we see - https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=61713&category=4324 - notice "True 'plug-and-play' compatability with ALL existing cable actuated systems", and "Works with ALL cable actuated road levers", and "Cable fixing position options optimize performance with 2.0 or 2.5 ratio levers". I like the last one, it's got numbers. So maybe the cable attaches in one of two "positions" depending which version of "road brake lever pull" you've got. It'll be clear in the installation manual, won't it?

https://trpcycling.com/wp-content//uploads/2017/10/HR2.0-HYRD.HYRD-FM-160602.pdf Well, no, it's not really. Though they do say - "The barrel adjuster is for fine tuning the lever feel and minor adjustments to eliminate slack in the cable. This will
be more evident on levers with less cable pull such as SRAM and Campagnolo." Not really telling how to set the caliper up for the two DIFFERENT cable pulls.

What I INFER from that sentence though, is that they consider a road lever with MORE cable pull than SRAM and Campagnolo to be "the norm". And that road lever would be Shimano NSSLR - or "current" Shimano. And I'd hazard a guess that the Spyre and HyRd are set up the same.

Now, in my research I've found that other people have tried to get clarification from TRP https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/900337-review-trp-hy-rd-brakes-3.html - who answered "I contacted TRP and they tell me, "There was some confusion when they were first announced about different cable fixing options, but there is only one."

My conclusion is that TRP Hy/Rd and Spyre's are actually optimised for Shimano NSSLR (modern Shimano), but that TRP kinda sorta give the impression that they'll work with any road brake lever. Which they sorta kinda might.

I would ditch the Sora and convert the gear train to SRAM/Campy, if it was still possible to get 3 x 9. Except I am absolutely sure that there would be a whole more compatibility nightmare to go through.

EDIT, from the same discussion above:

"What kind of brake levers do you have? The HY/RD's are notoriously sensitive to cable pull and overall lever travel. Some levers just don't work well with them. I tried using one with an old school Shimano BR-R400 and just could not get adequate braking force before the lever bottomed out. It was sort of okay but not something I'd feel comfortable with on a steep descent. On the other hand, they work great with Sora 3500 STI levers which I think use the newer "New Super SLR" cable pull standard. Also the Sora levers sit well forward of the handlebars so you can pull them a long way before they bottom out.

There are some mods you can try that will shorten the cable pull of the caliper, at the expense of having to exert a bit more force on the brake lever. IIRC, one of them involves filing a small notch in the actuator arm (i.e. the piece that moves when you pull the cable) and then routing the brake cable on the inner side of the pinch bolt. This effectively makes the arm shorter, so you get more movement of the master cylinder piston per mm of cable travel. Also, I think someone on one of the forums actually had some shorter actuator arms fabricated and has been testing them out, but I don't recall his name. One of the downsides of this is that I think the cable ends up rubbing against the reservoir housing. "

[Brucey]

from experience I can say that if you use HyRd calipers with pre 2008 shimano STIs (or similar pull campag or SRAM levers) then it can be made to work, but there is little margin for error.

The first thing (which some folk never get past) is that when HyRds are set up as well as they can be with such levers, the 'bite point' of the brakes is about half way through the lever stroke. This actually suits folk with small hands, if you can get your head around it, that is. It feels less bad when riding the bike than on the workstand; the brake is usually more effective than you expect it is going to be based on lever feel.

If the lever stroke to the bars is short ( some combinations of lever and handlebar are worse than others) then it feels like the levers might come back to the bars. And they might too, on a long wet descent with organic pads fitted, if you drag the brakes. Of course if the brakes are working normally the pads ought to self adjust so letting the brakes off and then reapplying them ought to get the bit point back to where it usually is. 'Ought to' is however dependant on a few things, including that the MC isn't hot (which it might be) and/or that there isn't air, water , or swarf in the hydraulic circuit (and I have seen all three in HyRd calipers; the water gets into a chainstay mounted HyRd rear brake caliper because the back of the MC piston might as well be a funnel for rainwater.... ). So it isn't a confidence-inspiring feeling, that the levers are so close to the bars; the brake power is fine but the feeling is not great.

All this is just 'better' if NSSLR levers are used; the bite point is comfortably within the first half of the lever stroke and there is still brake power and lever stroke to spare.

NB if the bite point with HyRds is higher than ~25% of the lever travel, it is almost certain that the compensation port in the MC is always closed (the lever with the pinch bolt on it doesn't come back far enough when the brake lever is released). The brakes will feel great (if you are after a high bite point) but they will no longer self-adjust like they should, which is incredibly bad; the slightest pad wear means the levers come back to the bar and you have got no brakes.

cheers

[mikeymo]

from experience I can say that if you use HyRd calipers with pre 2008 shimano STIs (or similar pull campag or SRAM levers) then it can be made to work, but there is little margin for error.

The first thing (which some folk never get past) is that when HyRds are set up as well as they can be with such levers, the 'bite point' of the brakes is about half way through the lever stroke. This actually suits folk with small hands, if you can get your head around it, that is. It feels less bad when riding the bike than on the workstand; the brake is usually more effective than you expect it is going to be based on lever feel.

If the lever stroke to the bars is short ( some combinations of lever and handlebar are worse than others) then it feels like the levers might come back to the bars. And they might too, on a long wet descent with organic pads fitted, if you drag the brakes. Of course if the brakes are working normally the pads ought to self adjust so letting the brakes off and then reapplying them ought to get the bit point back to where it usually is. 'Ought to' is however dependant on a few things, including that the MC isn't hot (which it might be) and/or that there isn't air, water , or swarf in the hydraulic circuit (and I have seen all three in HyRd calipers; the water gets into a chainstay mounted HyRd rear brake caliper because the back of the MC piston might as well be a funnel for rainwater.... ). So it isn't a confidence-inspiring feeling, that the levers are so close to the bars; the brake power is fine but the feeling is not great.

All this is just 'better' if NSSLR levers are used; the bite point is comfortably within the first half of the lever stroke and there is still brake power and lever stroke to spare.

NB if the bite point with HyRds is higher than ~25% of the lever travel, it is almost certain that the compensation port in the MC is always closed (the lever with the pinch bolt on it doesn't come back far enough when the brake lever is released). The brakes will feel great (if you are after a high bite point) but they will no longer self-adjust like they should, which is incredibly bad; the slightest pad wear means the levers come back to the bar and you have got no brakes.

cheers

Thanks, it sounds as though my conclusion about caliper/lever match was correct.

Is your opinion of the Hy/Rds, in terms of build quality, longevity and such like, the same as it is of the Spyres?

[PH]

I could probably have but this reply in any of your brake threads
First thing on my to do list would be find someone who is happy with the same brake combination you have and make a comparison. OK that's not going to be easy in these locked down times, but then you're probably not going anywhere either...
I've had BB7's road and MTB, on flat and drop bar bikes, with newish 105 STI levers, drop bar V brake levers and flat bar road and V levers. MTB calipers with V levers, flat and drop bar, have been marginally better than the road calipers whatever the lever, but all of them have been good. Yes I know good is subjective, which is why you need a comparison to determine if you're getting the best from what you have.
Thorn have also moved over to TRP brakes from BB7's, at least part of the reason for that is they're a lot easier to fit a rack around. Prior to that I never heard anyone complaining the BB7's (With STI's) were inadequate. My only experience with TRP's is on a flat bar bike, they're fine when not in need of the frequent adjustment, but the braking is no better than with BB7's.
If I had your kit and was going to make changes, I'd take the hit and go for new BB7 MTB calipers and V brake drop bar levers. The MTB calipers are often found discounted on Ebay in a way the road versions aren't, last time I swapped, I got almost as much for S/H road brakes as I paid for new MTB.

[Brucey]

re the comparison/choice between Spyres and HyRds. I think both have strengths and weaknesses. If forced to choose between them my choice would vary with the intended use. I'd probably choose HyRds if I was planning on doing day rides in the UK, especially if I favoured brakes that feel powerful. Otherwise I might choose the Spyres; although they are deeply flawed, there are fewer catastrophic failure modes.

Given a free choice it would be 'neither'.

cheers

[mikeymo]

I could probably have but this reply in any of your brake threads
First thing on my to do list would be find someone who is happy with the same brake combination you have and make a comparison. OK that's not going to be easy in these locked down times, but then you're probably not going anywhere either...
I've had BB7's road and MTB, on flat and drop bar bikes, with newish 105 STI levers, drop bar V brake levers and flat bar road and V levers. MTB calipers with V levers, flat and drop bar, have been marginally better than the road calipers whatever the lever, but all of them have been good. Yes I know good is subjective, which is why you need a comparison to determine if you're getting the best from what you have.
Thorn have also moved over to TRP brakes from BB7's, at least part of the reason for that is they're a lot easier to fit a rack around. Prior to that I never heard anyone complaining the BB7's (With STI's) were inadequate. My only experience with TRP's is on a flat bar bike, they're fine when not in need of the frequent adjustment, but the braking is no better than with BB7's.
If I had your kit and was going to make changes, I'd take the hit and go for new BB7 MTB calipers and V brake drop bar levers. The MTB calipers are often found discounted on Ebay in a way the road versions aren't, last time I swapped, I got almost as much for S/H road brakes as I paid for new MTB.

Sorry if I'm boring you with my brake threads My experience is that digging into detail is best. And that sometimes quite vague assertions on the internet should be treated with caution, however stridently they are made.

Consider an example from another domain. One would have thought that computers, software development and suchlike would be massively discussed on the internet, yes? And that all answers would be there, and very readily available, yes? A quick google and there's your answer. The best selling desktop operating system in the world is MS Windows, and the best selling office software is MS Office. So why couldn't I get accelerator keys to work for the tabs on tabbed MS Access interface, in MS Access 2010? Because it didn't work, and was never going to work, and Microsoft were keeping very quiet about it. I had to write a few extra lines (not a lot) to get round it, not a major problem. ONCE I HAD FOUND OUT ABOUT IT. That's my point. The internet does not make detailed information as ubiquitous as one might imagine. Especially about "issues".

Hence my repetition of things I found elsewhere. It certainly appears that many people are, literally, ignorant of the difference between the two (or possibly more) types of brake road pulls. But once made aware of that difference, they will be able to treat a manufacturer's claim that their product "works with all road levers" with the scepticism it deserves.

Yes, you're right, I'm almost certainly NOT going to be able to find anybody with my combination of components, to try out, at this moment in time.

My brakes aren't terrible. Though the difference in feel between the STIs and the cross top levers is noticeable. Presumably because the cross tops are actually correct road pull. I didn't use compressionless cable, that could very well help. Thank you for sharing your experiences, and those of your acquaintances. Though it is my bike, and me riding it. Your comment on TRPs doesn't really illuminate the issue though, as you say you've not had them on a road bike. I suppose a true comparison would be to swap between the two, on the same bike with the same levers. I'd actually like to install components that are designed to work with each other. Crazy idea, eh?

Thanks for you advice to change to BB7 MTB and V brake drop bar levers. Are there any STIs that have V brake levers? I couldn't find any. So if I were to go down that route, I would keep the BB7 road calipers, convert to DT shifters and get whatever road brake levers I liked the look of. There's masses of choice in road brake levers, including old used, and with my small hands it would be nice to find something that was a perfect fit.

Cheers.

[PH]

Sorry if I'm boring you with my brake threads My experience is that digging into detail is best. And that sometimes quite vague assertions on the internet should be treated with caution, however stridently they are made.

Sorry you got that impression, if you were boring me I wouldn't have replied.
My point remains that in your position I'd start by establishing that I was getting the best from what I had before looking elsewhere.
No there are no MTB pull compatible STI's, but if you're moving away from them, going he whole hog and getting MTB calipers gets you better brakes.
Do you need that? I can't answer, I've been happy using what you already have, though that was using the best pads properly bedded in, compression less cable and careful set up.

[mikeymo]

Sorry if I'm boring you with my brake threads My experience is that digging into detail is best. And that sometimes quite vague assertions on the internet should be treated with caution, however stridently they are made.

Sorry you got that impression, if you were boring me I wouldn't have replied.
My point remains that in your position I'd start by establishing that I was getting the best from what I had before looking elsewhere.
No there are no MTB pull compatible STI's, but if you're moving away from them, going he whole hog and getting MTB calipers gets you better brakes.
Do you need that? I can't answer, I've been happy using what you already have, though that was using the best pads properly bedded in, compression less cable and careful set up.

It's almost philosophical. I want stuff that is actually supposed to work together. And also partly a sort of disappointment. This is the first bike I've ever built from scratch, and the first derailleur equipped bike I've ever ridden or owned. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, but somehow pulled it off. One thing I was pleased with was that I seemed to manage to buy all the right components, given that the entire thing was a mystery. So now, I'm a bit "oh, they don't match, quite".

Though your suggestion of MTB calipers might be worth considering, combined with my current STIs, and those Travel Agent thingies. Though they would look horrible, used in that way. And I wonder if I'm not going to have a similar problem - as far as I can make out they are only offered in road brake size, rather than "modern Shimano" and "all the rest".

https://problemsolversbike.com/files/tech/6516_pro_travelagt_inst.pdf

Of course the other way would be to try to source a triple Campy setup, presumably at great expense, keep the BB7s. And then buy spares of everything, before the cycling manufacturers finally decide that the market for wide range touring cycles isn't worth bothering with any more. Which I think they have done already.