what are "washing lines"?

[Bmblbzzz]

I actually peg route cue cards to mine!

I have also done that but found it difficult to read as the sheet flapped around, increased drag far more noticeably than I'd anticipated, and also prone to falling off. However, I note you've said "cards" not "sheets" so maybe with a small, stiff card it works okay.

Yes, I'm using 3x5s. They tend to swing in line with airflow so I doubt there's much drag as long as you use small pegs. Sometimes I have to tap them to spin them back so I can read them!

If I have a handlebar bag fitted, the cards go in the top pocket instead.

I've done that with maps and it works well.

[531colin]

If you are going for downtube gear levers, I can heartily recommend BB7 MTB calipers and drop bar V brake levers. Excellent braking, no fancy cables needed.

[Psamathe]

I have also done that but found it difficult to read as the sheet flapped around, increased drag far more noticeably than I'd anticipated, and also prone to falling off. However, I note you've said "cards" not "sheets" so maybe with a small, stiff card it works okay.

Yes, I'm using 3x5s. They tend to swing in line with airflow so I doubt there's much drag as long as you use small pegs. Sometimes I have to tap them to spin them back so I can read them!

If I have a handlebar bag fitted, the cards go in the top pocket instead.

With my old (now replaced) Tiagra washing lines STIs I would not have been able to get a bar bag in. But changed to 105s then new Tiagra (which don't have the washing lines) so ok for bar bag now.

Ian

[Brucey]

washing lines + bar bag = no problem if you fit V-pipes in the right place



cheers

[mikeymo]

If you are going for downtube gear levers, I can heartily recommend BB7 MTB calipers and drop bar V brake levers. Excellent braking, no fancy cables needed.

Thanks. So are you saying that:

MTB BB7 with V brake drop bar brake levers,

would give me better braking than,

road BB7 with "proper" (i.e. not Shimano NSSLR) drop bar road brake levers?

And not as "fussy" about cable as a road BB7 set up?

If so what V brake levers would you recommend? Maybe something that would match small hands.

Though I'm not sure if I would go for it. I've already got a pair of Sora R317 disc calipers on their way to me. Buying MTB BB7s would mean having 3 pairs of cable disc calipers, but only one bike to put them on. Whereas if I buy a pair of Tektro RL341s, I'll only have wasted/risked £17.

[kylecycler]

washing lines + bar bag = no problem if you fit V-pipes in the right place



cheers

Just my POV, Brucey, but that's a contender for the best post you've ever made on this forum (and I know that's a seriously high bar!).

I've got early Claris brifters on my (probably one and only ever) road bike, and given that the only sensible or practical place to fit a feeding bag is on the bars, I've been stuck - you've just solved the problem!

Cheers.

[Brucey]

Nice of you to say so, but I feel I should mention it is not my idea, and it is not my photo either. BTW I'd probably use flexi-noodles; I'd be worried about knocking the solid sort and cracking the STI housings.

cheers

[mjr]

My bar bags are closer to 1 litre than 10, so they fit around the cables.

[kylecycler]

Nice of you to say so, but I feel I should mention it is not my idea, and it is not my photo either. BTW I'd probably use flexi-noodles; I'd be worried about knocking the solid sort and cracking the STI housings.

cheers

So where do I get flexi-noodles, then?

(Ok it was a long way short of your best post ever on the forum - got a bit carried away there! )

[Brucey]

flexi noodles here, e.g.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cables/flexible-v-brake-guide-pipe-90mm-long/

they have several different ones, with/without barrel adjusters, colours etc.

cheers

[kylecycler]

flexi noodles here, e.g.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cables/flexible-v-brake-guide-pipe-90mm-long/

they have several different ones, with/without barrel adjusters, colours etc.

cheers

That's excellent, Brucey, thanks. Never seen these before.

Claris brifters no longer have 'washing line' cables but mine were the early type and the bar bag I got didn't want to fit. I might have bodged it if I'd persevered but these flexi noodles will be just the job.

[foxyrider]

read the expression here a few times, about bars and brakes.

It refers to the variety of brake/gear levers where the cables are not both routed under the bartape, so that the gear cable emerges from the lever sideways, as if you could hang drying socks on them!

I see mjr has given another explanation. Take your pick.

I first heard the expression after STIs came out, so I'm supposing that it never meant 'brake cables' per se; they had not been exposed on race bikes for several years prior to that. Campag ergo users were keen on using that phrase if the discussion ever veered round to 'which was better?'

cheers

+1
Washing lines are specifically Shimano gear wires from road STi's. There was no mechanical reason for the 'design' it was entirely a marketing thing so you could identify a Shimano user in races. The fact that it then took Shimano over 20 years to eliminate them from the range (i think all levels are now through bar) was more laziness on the Mfr's part than anything else.

[Brucey]

shimano launched their STI system in 1990. Theirs was the only such system on the market (for about two years) so they could make it any way they wanted to, albeit they had already settled on a ~1.7 shift ratio for all their groupsets apart from Dura Ace, which was a higher shift ratio still. When campagnolo launched their ergopower system in 1992 they chose to use underbartape cable routing and (in good part because they were also using a lower shift ratio) they could get away with it too.

I have every reason to believe that shimano stuck with external cable routing for two reasons; firstly technical; for any given shift ratio/cable quality washing lines work better than hidden cables, which have more bends in them. Secondly pragmatic; race mechanics can change a gear cable (inner and outer) on a washing line system in about five minutes, but with a hidden cable setup, it takes a lot longer because you have to mess about with the bar tape too.

Shimano chose to ditch the Dura-Ace shift ratio when 9s was launched; 8s DA pulls the same amount of cable per click as every shimano 9s (~1.7 shift ratio) system. They persevered with the same ~1.7 shift ratio with 10s; at first with washing lines and later without. IHMO in 10s the shimano system only worked at all well, ever, because they had made improvements to the chain and cassette which improved shifting. Once they finally went to underbartape routing the whole system became almost unworkably sensitive to cable condition; shimano had about four goes at making different cables which performed properly in 10s underbartape systems and in the end they gave up; all 11s shimano road systems use a lower shift ratio (which is very close to that of campagnolo) and they even used this shift ratio in the most recent 10s road system to be launched, Tiagra 4700.

'Washing lines' in new shifters have not gone; they live on today in current models such as ST-A070 and ST-A073.

cheers

[mikeymo]

Given my proposal to change to downtube shifters:

for any given shift ratio/cable quality washing lines work better than hidden cables, which have more bends in them.

Does the same apply to brake cables? Especially disc brake cables?

Secondly pragmatic; race mechanics can change a gear cable (inner and outer) on a washing line system in about five minutes

Obviously washing line brake cables could also be changed a lot quicker than ones under bar tape. But are there any "washing line" brake only dropbar road levers available?

Thanks.

[foxyrider]

Given my proposal to change to downtube shifters:

for any given shift ratio/cable quality washing lines work better than hidden cables, which have more bends in them.

Does the same apply to brake cables? Especially disc brake cables?

Secondly pragmatic; race mechanics can change a gear cable (inner and outer) on a washing line system in about five minutes

Obviously washing line brake cables could also be changed a lot quicker than ones under bar tape. But are there any "washing line" brake only dropbar road levers available?

Thanks.

AFAIK you both Tektro and DiaCompe can be had in all manner of variations still - its finding somewhere that has them that's the problem. A decent LBS should be able to order them though.