Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

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DaveP
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Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by DaveP »

Until quite recently I doubted that I would ever post here again - I stopped visiting because Arthritis stopped me getting on a bike and there didn't seem to be much point. A couple of years ago I bought a Brompton for a variety of reasons, not least the low step over but even that soon became too difficult. Fast forward past a hip replacement and I find I can now ride it . And if the NHS is ever able to resume normal service so that I can have another, I expect to be able to use a normal bike. :D
In the meantime I'm coming to terms with a two year old 6speed Brompton with probably less than 500 miles on the clock. I went out on it a couple of days ago and in the unaccustomed quiet I became aware of a faint ticking noise which left me wondering if the chain was feeding accurately onto the sprockets. I've just spent a wet afternoon finding out how it works (?!!) and learning how to balance the stop screws aginst the cable tension. I'm pretty sure I've got it right - smooth shift, no overthrow, and decent gaps between the pusher and the pulley - but I have noticed that the chain isn't landing correctly on either sprocket. I can see it centering itself 3 or 4 teeth after first engagement.
Of course this is bike inverted with no load. Its not severe and might correct itself in normal use but it's a bit disconcerting. If I spotted something like this in a conventional derailleur system I'd reckon to adjust it away just because. But with the Brompton system, except when shifting, the pulleys are free to slide across - you could say they are positioned by the sprockets.
Is this sort of thing just the Brompton version of normal, or is there some cunning technique that I could and should use to improve things?
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully... That hasn't changed!
drossall
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by drossall »

It's normal because that's not the derailleur. The derailleur is the little gate gadget under the chain stay. The pulleys just move across to follow the chain. The derailleur is somewhat self-adjusting.

I've found that my 6-speed Brompton is particularly subject to getting clogged by dirt and to wear, although it should do your 500 miles. It's being so near the ground that is the problem - more muck gets sprayed onto it. Mine was getting pretty unreliable, and nothing I did would fix it. Then I replaced chain, sprockets and pulleys because of wear, and hey presto. No change to the adjustment, but it was all like new. (I'd also recently replaced a worn-out chainset.)

So I'd start by cleaning as thoroughly as possible, and replacing any parts that do happen to be worn (again, probably not necessary after 500 miles, but possibly after only two or three times that).

Have you seen the PDFs here?
hoogerbooger
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by hoogerbooger »

Make sure the jockey wheels are free of crud and lubed so they can slide in and out easily. Also crud or lack of lube can prevent the chain pusher, pushing all the way. Both possibly could affect sprocket change and chain line-up
old fangled
Brucey
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by Brucey »

FWIW it sounds as if it is working (more or less) normally to me.

However I would strip, clean and grease the pulley bushings in the tensioner. They are usually bone-dry IME, and as others have said the pulleys can easily get clogged with crud.

Once the gear is selected, provided the stop screws are set correctly, the pulley shouldn't be rubbing hard on either side of the 'chain pusher' fork.

cheers
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simonineaston
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by simonineaston »

My own Brompton ( a 2 speed) has been a noisy nuisance in the past, but I've tracked all the clicks, creaks and crunches down successfully and now know what to do & when. So it can be done! At 500 miles, I don't think anything will be 'worn-out', so that's a good start. Glad to hear you're back cycling again - hope you enjoy your new-found freedom :-)
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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DaveP
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by DaveP »

Thanks, I had seen the pdfs but they seemed a bit ancient at the time. Seemed more relevant this time around!
I had another session today. Started out to make a fine adjustment - two hours later...
At least I think I now have a procedure sorted out: Start in Low and set a modest amount of cable tension - too much and you are wasting future adjustment options. Too little and the spring might not have enough Oomph to power the downshift. Then use the adjustment screw to minimise the gap between the chain pusher and the outer face of the pulley. Shift to High and do the same for the gap between the other pusher blade and the inner face of the pulley. These screws might need further little tweaks to make everything just so, but that's the start point. What I found confusing is that the pusher only has to slide the pulley until the chain shifts, at which point the chain drags the pulley clear of the pusher and if the pulley-pusher clearances are then too big, it may not be able to push the chain far enough when going the other way. Then I decided to clean the chain...
TBH it really wasn't very dirty. More household dust than road grit. But it did still have the manufacturers grease in it. Washed and oiled it was clearly more supple. A couple of little tweaks and its changing nicely. More than that, its seating properly on the sprockets. Result!
Its obviously going to be important to keep this chain clean. I used oil this time, but I'm seriously considering using a dry lube just to reduce dirt pick up.
I had the pulleys off at the same time and cleaned them up. They're a nightmare aren't they? I wonder what would happen if I filed off those internal ribs or filled the gaps between them? The £200 titanium pulleys don't appear to have them - but I won't be buying those anytime soon!
They were both dry and clean internally. Advice on here to grease 'em. Advice from manufacturer to grease 'em. Manufacturer does not grease 'em. I worry about using wrong grease on plastics and have vague ideas about plastic/metal bearings being "self lubricating"...
I refitted them dry for now, but if I am going to grease 'em is it ok to use ordinary grease or should I be looking at silicon grease and suchlike?
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully... That hasn't changed!
Brucey
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by Brucey »

I don't think there is much to be gained by using a silicone grease; here almost anything is better than nothing.

FWIW I use finish line Teflon grease here, in the bushings only. NB if the overlapping part of the pulley and the tensioner bracket is even slightly greasy, dirt tends to stick to it and this can cause the pulleys to bind, even before the dirt gets as far as the bushings.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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DaveP
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by DaveP »

Yes, this is clearly an area which needs to be kept clean and greasefree. Part of the reason why I refitted dry, in fact. The other part is that I wondered why theres no factory lube in there - in fact you could be forgiven for thinking that the metal parts had been degreased. Carelessness? Or some idea of running dry and replacing frequently to control dirt associated problems?
I'll likely take your advice and grease mine. But before I do, would dry lubes be worth a try here? I have teflon, moly and silicon sprays to hand. My skipdiving past...
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully... That hasn't changed!
rmurphy195
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by rmurphy195 »

I regulalry clean the crud out of my brommies rear deraiiler, then spray TF2 into the bearings, such as they are (I do the same with the rear shifter on my tourer). Seems to work OK.

Cleaning usually means using a screwdriver blade to hook out the muck that biuls up until the teeth are alomst invisible, it can build up so fast.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
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simonineaston
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by simonineaston »

Reminds me of an amusing quip from Ry Cooder who has a dry sense of humour. Interviewed for Guitar magazine, donks ago, he remarked that, "I change my strings regularly - at least once a year...".
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Brucey
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by Brucey »

DaveP wrote:….. would dry lubes be worth a try here? I have teflon, moly and silicon sprays to hand. My skipdiving past...


depends how persistent you think the lube is. I once lubed Brompton tensioner pulley bushings using a chain lube' and I happened to have to take the thing apart again the following day ( I was using a 2s tensioner in an IGH-only setup, and had shimmed the pulleys (wrongly) to give a fixed lateral position). The pulleys seemed bone dry again, like I hadn't lubed them. Grease is better in this respect; I think the plastic may be a filled plastic and I think the filler may even be abrasive; grease is best.

Also, assuming that your Brompton has a 52T chainring and you ride at about 90rpm when doing ~15mph (which is fairly normal gearing for such bikes I think) guess how many miles before the pulleys have twirled round a million times?

A. Slightly over 400 miles.

i.e. not very far. Most dry sprays won't last that long.

cheers
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DaveP
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Re: Hello Again! Is there a Brompton derailleur expert in the house?

Post by DaveP »

Crikey! Most of the envelopes I get these days aren't wide enough to handle sums like that - I'd have to break out the Sinclair Scientific...
As I said, I picked the sprays up because they were there, but I've never found a use for them. I tried them out on a semi auto rifle once. Dry lube was considered to be "the way to go" but the resulting sound effects... well I never got as far as livefiring! A litle plastic wheel spinning round a polished metal sleeve seeemed like a simpler proposition.
Grease it shall be.
Thanks!
Trying to retain enough fitness to grow old disgracefully... That hasn't changed!
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