conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

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Brucey
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conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2020, 12:45am

Many years ago the thought of using clipless pedals raised the ugly spectre in my mind of me pulling hard and leaving the sole + cleat attached to the pedal, and the shoe upper attached to my foot. It struck me that this could never happen with clips and straps and of course it never did.

However I have indeed had several sets of shoes which have come apart in the way I imagined. The latest was just today;

Image01687.jpg
smile please!


doubtless the execution was flawed in some way (glue I expect) but I can't help but think that had the conception been a bit better (eg why are the straps not attached to the sole...?... :roll: ) then it wouldn't, indeed couldn't have happened.

BTW this neatly answers the question 'do you pull up on your cleats?'. Of course you do.... :lol:

cheers
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tatanab
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby tatanab » 24 May 2020, 6:59am

I was late on the uptake of clipless. I got my first pair in 1995. I've had Shimano, Sidi, Northwave, Dromarti, Giro and probably other brands of shoes. Almost all have been ok, the upper can be seen to lift from the soles but only at the very edge around the ball of the foot, which might be expected. I have had one pair where the soles separated as in your photograph, but not quite as badly. These were the most expensive shoes and failed after less than 10,000 miles. Worse than that, they started to fail when on tour so I had to nurse them home. Clearly I am one who pulls up on the pedals when climbing.

In your case, straps could have been attached to the soles, but that would not work with laces which is my preference.

pwa
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby pwa » 24 May 2020, 8:31am

I had a pair of Sidi (Dominator ?) shoes go that way.

Brucey
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2020, 8:36am

the shoes in question have both straps and laces, which is either twice as good or just twice as much faff getting them on and off....

Today's ride will be interesting; I have the choice of spare shoes -to which I have yet to attach cleats correctly- or the failed shoes with a (on past experience somewhat temporary) glued repair. Faff of one kind or another is virtually guaranteed, I would have said!

cheers
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Cugel
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Cugel » 24 May 2020, 8:58am

Brucey wrote:Many years ago the thought of using clipless pedals raised the ugly spectre in my mind of me pulling hard and leaving the sole + cleat attached to the pedal, and the shoe upper attached to my foot. It struck me that this could never happen with clips and straps and of course it never did.

However I have indeed had several sets of shoes which have come apart in the way I imagined. The latest was just today;

Image01687.jpg

doubtless the execution was flawed in some way (glue I expect) but I can't help but think that had the conception been a bit better (eg why are the straps not attached to the sole...?... :roll: ) then it wouldn't, indeed couldn't have happened.

BTW this neatly answers the question 'do you pull up on your cleats?'. Of course you do.... :lol:

cheers



Long ago (in the days of toe clips & straps, in fact) I had a book by some famous Yank cycle training bloke employed by their national teams. (Can't recall his name). He was a sports scientist type so had lots of stuff derived from various experiments and investigations of cyclist's physical actions on a bike. One such was pedalling motions and forces .....

He performed a number of experiments - on many kinds of cyclists from international racers to moms-on-bikes - to measure their pedalling pressures through the whole rotation of the chainwheel, in various kinds of efforts. He discovered that very few - even of the elite racers - pulled up much on the rear/rising pedal. In fact, virtually none pulled up with any significant pressure, merely taking the weight of their leg off that pedal so the other pedal being pushed down didn't have to lift the upgoing leg's weight as well as pushing the chain 'round.

I remember reading an article, later on, about this experimentation and it's results. A British training fellow (the name of whom I can't recall either) said that he'd done similar but much more limited experiments on track cyclists, who tend to have a different pedalling action because of the nature of the sport but also because of the fixed wheel. He discovered that these track riders did exert more upward pull on the rear pedal, with a typical greater development of track cyclist's "leg biceps" (the muscles of the thighs that bend the leg rather than those straightening it.

A perfect example was Reg Harris, who has enormous rear thigh muscles because of his habit of pulling up on the rear pedal nearly as hard as he was pushing down on the front pedal. In fact, he once remarked that this pedalling action was the secret of his success, as he trained to improve it whilst others didn't and merely acquired the habit because of the nature of track cycling - yet never consciously developed the action as they did their pushing-down thrusts.

******
Myself, I tend not to pull up on the rear pedal unless sprinting or climbing hard. And I know that the force used to pull up is not that great. It really does (once you notice it) feel like I'm mostly taking the weight off the rear pedal rather than tugging up very hard. The only time I tug up hard is on a seated steep climb where my cadence is lowish but still not of the heaving-weaving pace. This in an effort to keep the cadence smooth rather than apply more force.

But perhaps you have developed a Reg-mode, to the detriment of them shoes? :-)

Cugel

Brucey
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2020, 9:18am

my suspicion is that when I'm tapping along I'm not pulling up much on the pedals, much as the literature suggests. But I certainly do pull up when I'm starting off and probably whenever I am accelerating. Maybe at other times too, but probably not like Reg Harris! I ride mostly clipless these days but I also use bikes with flat pedals for local transport and utility work. On the latter types of machine I have to mentally adjust myself else I pull my feet off the pedals. I suppose that the different bike/ upright riding position is a trigger that helps me do the right thing, but I go through phases of MTBing too and then I can (and do) pull up as well. [There is a whole discussion about conscious vs unconscious competence to be had but maybe that is for another thread.]

As I recently mentioned in another thread I do find that quite small changes in (say) BB bearing free play may not be immediately noticeable but they do make themselves felt in the longer term; in effect any initial effort put into pulling up may be wasted if there is free play in the bearings or any slop anywhere.

cheers
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whoof
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby whoof » 24 May 2020, 9:32am

I've known exactly the same to happen on numerous shoes. Mrs Whoof seems particularly prone to it and has ridden with elastic bands around the end of her shoes to stop them flapping.

Nothing to do with clippless pedals, pulling up or cycling shoes. She rides with flat pedals and wearing trainers it's just the way shoes are made with uppers glued and stitched to the sole and the way your foot articulates.

pwa
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby pwa » 24 May 2020, 9:37am

I'm pretty sure it is just that the soles are too stiff to bend like normal soles, and the upper gets pulled as a consequence. I think the damage is done when walking, not cycling. It has happened to me and I am definitely not one for pulling up on a pedal.

Brucey
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2020, 9:50am

FWIW the shoes in question have seen lots of cycling and little walking. If walking caused my cycling shoes to fail then I would presumably have seen that in the many sets of shoes I've used with clips and straps.

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 24 May 2020, 10:03am

Hi,
In the early 70s at PAIGNTON pontins holiday camp, me and my mates spent time cleaning kettles et cetera to while away the summer holidays.
Fortunately his cousin was in HR and every high wire flaming escape ologist et cetera that came along to amuse the customers, We would drop tools and rush long to watch :)
http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html
FEE954AF-053E-4C92-B93E-359C58256EC7.png

there was a 1970s version of this with Reg Harris and Colin Lewis, Colin fell off because he's never been on one before.
I remember this but I don't remember much about Reg Harris apart from that I recognised him now.
Lewis has just retired I think from pro riding and open the shop in Preston Paignton.
I think Reg Harris was still competing?

Maybe sprint cyclist to pull up a lot I would imagine yes they do to get that extra oomph.
I do it seldom I mainly trying to keep up the cadence sitting going uphill.

So is this post about pulling up for the little to be gained from it or poor quality shoes :P
Seems expensive if nothing else.
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tatanab
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby tatanab » 24 May 2020, 10:04am

Brucey wrote:my suspicion is that when I'm tapping along I'm not pulling up much on the pedals, much as the literature suggests. But I certainly do pull up when I'm starting off and probably whenever I am accelerating.
That sums up my style as well. Certainly when climbing I find I am pulling up.

As a tricyclist, I am one of the few who can prove absolutely that I pull up at certain times, such as pulling away from traffic lights. Since both feet are engaged I can pull away rather briskly. It happens that among others I have a 1950s trike which is built with period(ish) components, including toeclips and straps. I found that because I am used to being attached firmly to the pedals I would pull my feet out as I moved off. Even with good old shoe plates I have to be strapped quite tightly to avoid this. Ergo - I pull up and back quite strongly when pulling away or climbing. Why? Because clipless pedals allow me to do it which must mean I am able to apply more power even at my feeble level.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 24 May 2020, 10:07am

Hi,
Very possible for short periods of time something to be gained.
But has anybody tried it on a ergonomicmeter To see how much extra BHP you would get over say one hour?
So one test no pulling and one test pulling all you like.
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pwa
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby pwa » 24 May 2020, 10:24am

Brucey wrote:FWIW the shoes in question have seen lots of cycling and little walking. If walking caused my cycling shoes to fail then I would presumably have seen that in the many sets of shoes I've used with clips and straps.

cheers

Try this then.

The sole is a stiff arc. When you press down with your foot it attempts to straighten, stretching the upper where it is bonded to the sole. The rip starts at the tip of the toe. My Sidis detached at the tip of the toe first, and nobody pulls up with their toes.

Brucey
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby Brucey » 24 May 2020, 10:30am

this rip didn't start at the toe. The other shoe in this pair is starting to go, near the middle of the sole not at the toe. It seems to me that shoes vary and have different problems/weaknesses. They also see different loads depending on who is using them.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: conception vs execution; shoes can be a problem

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 24 May 2020, 10:55am

Hi,
Despite the name and appearance of even brand name shoes.
I have noticed a decline in quality of some stuff.
Particularly bonding of soles.
So I'm suggesting that it has nothing to do with pulling up just poor quality creeping in through the back door.
So red herrings.
I had several pairs of my favourite walking shoes, I would swear by them on the quality.
Unfortunately my last pair same brand simply fell apart and disintegrated?
They were less than a year old and I'd hardly use them.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.