Hallett's Howlers

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Bonefishblues
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby Bonefishblues » 5 Jun 2020, 12:23pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
Carlton green wrote:With your post here above the thread started to drift in an unhelpful direction again. As far as I can tell you somehow resurrected comments from Colin 531 so that you could then challenge them again in what’s seemingly a trivial and distracting argument about a relatively small point. If the way that I read things is correct then IMHO the Mod’s would be perfectly correct to place you on the naughty step. I think that it would be good if you were able to just let your issue drop so that others members aren’t distracted from discussing more constructive aspects of the original post, any chance of that please?


My only issues are accuracy and balance. Suggesting that someone has a vested interest in influencing the advice they give is hardly a 'small point'. And as long as people here persist with that line, I will try to balance it.

Do you have a link to Mr Hallett?

sjs
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby sjs » 5 Jun 2020, 12:58pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Do you have a link to Mr Hallett?


http://www.halletthandbuiltcycles.com/


Looks quite like an online shop to me.

Jdsk
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby Jdsk » 5 Jun 2020, 12:59pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:If you can explain why that might be relevant, or if you can explain why you think I've been anything less than completely level on this thread, I'd be glad to answer.

It's relevant for me because if I was told that you had a connection to Hallett or his commercial business that I hadn't known about I'd then reread the entire thread knowing that to be the case.

I hope that's enough to make you glad to answer.

Thanks

Jonathan

thatsnotmyname
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby thatsnotmyname » 5 Jun 2020, 1:03pm

Jdsk wrote:
thatsnotmyname wrote:If you can explain why that might be relevant, or if you can explain why you think I've been anything less than completely level on this thread, I'd be glad to answer.

It's relevant for me because if I was told that you had a connection to Hallett or his commercial business that I hadn't known about I'd then reread the entire thread knowing that to be the case.

I hope that's enough to make you glad to answer.

Thanks

Jonathan


He is an acquaintance. I have no commercial, technical or business involvement with him. That said, I would offer the same defence of anyone else subject to the kind of smears and insinuations that people have levelled at him here.

By all means criticise his technical advice. I don't read the CUK mag, so have no opinion on it. But the way some people are treating someone who is not in a position to defend themselves here is an absolute disgrace.

Jdsk
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby Jdsk » 5 Jun 2020, 1:03pm

Thanks

Jonathan

PH
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby PH » 5 Jun 2020, 1:42pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
By all means criticise his technical advice. I don't read the CUK mag, so have no opinion on it. But the way some people are treating someone who is not in a position to defend themselves here is an absolute disgrace.

+1
I have no connection whatsoever with the individual, but find this entire thread unnecessarily personal.

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mjr
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2020, 6:25pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
mjr wrote:Because of his other activities and commercial relationships with other businesses, he is potentially unable to render impartial advice, or his objectivity might be otherwise impaired, or he might have an unfair competitive advantage.

Without declarations, it's a pretty textbook example of conflict of interest. Do you disagree, or just take the view that it doesn't matter?


You have never actually been able to identify what these commercial relationships might be though - and how they have influenced the advice he gives. If it is a 'textbook example', then presumably you have specific evidence which you can link to?

So you're denying that he has any commercial relationships covering any products he writes about in Cycle?!?

That seems rather unlikely to me, but others with better eyes can probably reel off a list of brand names by looking at the models in his web shop, then others with more copies of Cycle can see if he's written about them.

thatsnotmyname wrote:That said, I would offer the same defence of anyone else subject to the kind of smears and insinuations that people have levelled at him here.

Stating that someone has a conflict of interest is not by itself any kind of smear. If it were, then many authors would be smearing themselves in their published articles and many elected members would be smearing themselves during meetings!

The sin is usually failure to declare the interest when relevant, but that's a pretty straightforward absence to check.

But the way some people are treating someone who is not in a position to defend themselves here is an absolute disgrace.

How is he not in a position to defend himself? Are you saying he's been banned from here?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby thatsnotmyname » 5 Jun 2020, 6:35pm

mjr wrote:So you're denying that he has any commercial relationships covering any products he writes about in Cycle?!?


I have no idea whether he does or not - but you obviously do, so why don't you provide the evidence for us all to consider, like I've asked you to do previously.

mjr wrote:Stating that someone has a conflict of interest is not by itself any kind of smear.


Accusations of conflict of interest are usually accompanied by some actual evidence. See above. Still waiting.

mjr wrote:The sin is usually failure to declare the interest when relevant, but that's a pretty straightforward absence to check.


So check it - and let us know.

mjr wrote:How is he not in a position to defend himself? Are you saying he's been banned from here?


I don't even know if he has a user account on here. Do you?

MartinC
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby MartinC » 5 Jun 2020, 6:48pm

Some elements of this thread are unnecessarily personal.

For me there are 2 issues here:
- the standard of technical advice being published in what should be a touchstone for UK cyclists (publishing stuff that you need a fair amount of knowledge to be sure is ok isn't very inclusive)

- editorial independence, again as an inclusive charity you'd expect the advice it gives to be demonstrably free from any influence by outside commercial interests.

Both of these issues aren't personal but are aspects of editorial policy. I'd expect this to ensure that professional articles are fact checked, proof read and have enough editorial oversight that ensures howlers don't happen. I can immediately think of 4 instances of technical content needing correcting without trying to remember all the things I've thought hmmmm whilst reading. It's the magazine and it's sloppy.

There are many people with commercial interests who make valuable contributions to the magazine and it would be poorer without them, but we expect 'official' CUK advice to have no ties to any particular company or advertiser interest. I'd suspect that CUK's view is that technical stuff doesn't warrant full time staff unlike 'charity' stuff. They're wrong, by it's very nature it's hard for any cyclist to maximise the use they get from cycling without the right technology. Bike week is coming up - usually fixing people's bikes is the biggest and most visible CUK activity.

Jdsk
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby Jdsk » 5 Jun 2020, 6:51pm

MartinC wrote:There are many people with commercial interests who make valuable contributions to the magazine and it would be poorer without them, but we expect 'official' CUK advice to have no ties to any particular company or advertiser interest.

I don't expect that, and we'd probably miss a lot if we only heard from people with one hat on. I'd just like to know about those hats when I'm reading what they write.

Jonathan

MartinC
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby MartinC » 5 Jun 2020, 7:11pm

Jdsk wrote:I don't expect that, and we'd probably miss a lot if we only heard from people with one hat on. I'd just like to know about those hats when I'm reading what they write.

Jonathan


I hoped that my post made it clear that all those contributions were welcome and valuable but that there's an expectation that anything that comes with the CUK branding to be free of any potential conflicts of interest. If you don't attend to this you end up with a damaged brand.


I don't think anyone is accusing any CUK staff of giving partial advice. Having a role as an editor in an independent charity that involves advising on a topic where you have an outside commercial interest is a conflict of interest in itself. It doesn't depend on the people involved or any particular event.

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mjr
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2020, 7:59pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
mjr wrote:So you're denying that he has any commercial relationships covering any products he writes about in Cycle?!?


I have no idea whether he does or not - but you obviously do, so why don't you provide the evidence for us all to consider, like I've asked you to do previously.

As I wrote earlier, he has written about some products used on bikes displayed in Hallett Handbuilt's web shop.

Please note the "might" and "potentially" in the definition of conflict of interest and that no-one has accused him of having vested interests, contrary to a previous post.

mjr wrote:How is he not in a position to defend himself? Are you saying he's been banned from here?


I don't even know if he has a user account on here. Do you?

Then how do you know he is not in a position to defend himself?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby thatsnotmyname » 5 Jun 2020, 8:07pm

mjr wrote:As I wrote earlier, he has written about some products used on bikes displayed in Hallett Handbuilt's web shop.

Please note the "might" and "potentially" in the definition of conflict of interest and that no-one has accused him of having vested interests, contrary to a previous post.


So you've got nothing but bluster, then. I also note you insist on repeating this absurd 'webshop' nonsense, despite his website not actually meeting any of the conventional definitions of a web 'shop'. In any case, he builds bikes to customer spec - not his own spec, so if he is recommending a certain product, then I would guess that is simply a coincidence, or can you not see that?


mjr wrote:Then how do you know he is not in a position to defend himself?


Oh, I dunno, possibly something to do with the fact that he has not replied to this thread - you know, the one which calls into account his personal and professional integrity. I'm sure if someone impugned your personal or professional reputation on here, without proof or evidence, you'd be all over it like a rash...

I'd like to finish up by saying that ordinarily, I would call you a master of diversion, were it not for the fact that you're not actually very good at it.

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mjr
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2020, 8:16pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:So you've got nothing but bluster, then.

Nothing at all - except that it's rather absurd to suggest the opposite and that he builds bikes without buying any parts.

you know, the one which calls into account his personal and professional integrity.

Huh? Having a conflict of interest doesn't "call into account his personal and professional integrity". I've had conflicts of interest from time to time, properly noted on registers of the relevant regulatory bodies, and have no problem if anyone wants to point them out!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Hallett's Howlers

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jun 2020, 8:35pm

pwa wrote:
fausto99 wrote:
Graham wrote:Please note that any further "head-of-a-pin" arguments will invoke the dreaded . . . . naughty step. !


Please explain. I'd never heard of "head-of-a-pin" arguments, so I consulted Mrs fausto99, who is a retired English teacher, and she explained about academic clerics and futile theoretical arguments re fitting angels onto pins, but I still fail to see the relevance to any of the posts in this thread.

It did occur to me that it was "head of a pin" stuff while it was going on.

What it means is that the discussion became focused in on a tiny little detail so unimportant to the main discussion about technical advice that it became a bit silly. It became a discussion over what is a "shop", whether it has to be a bricks-and-mortar place you can visit, whether it can be just online, whether it can be called a shop if it is just a customer asking for something directly, in a conversation...... And since it all implies the possibility of dishonourable intent it ventures into possible libel, with (to my mind) no solid evidence, it all becomes a bit dodgy.

It is legitimate, however, to ask whether, in principle, it is right for someone who has a commercial interest in selling bike stuff should be put forward to offer impartial technical advice. Regardless of whether we call his operation a "shop". But this was not the objection of the OP, which was simply concerned with the dubious nature of some of the advice offered.

It seemed like a deliberate derailment to me. But maybe it was just nerdery or pedantry. Whichever, it doesn't seem to have actually stopped. :roll: