Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

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NickJP
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby NickJP » 30 Jun 2020, 10:27am

All my bikes are setup like that. It amuses me when I see the wannabes trundling around with their bars six or eight inches below the saddle because "that's how the pros do it".

Image

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 30 Jun 2020, 11:55am

NickJP wrote:Image


That looks like an Open Mind with a Carbon steerer tube?

That brings to mind one of my other concerns about high bars on racey carbon bikes with low front ends - steerer tube strength.

(I’m aware that some people get round the problem by gluing a long aluminium tube inside the carbon steerer to reinforce it, and you may well have done that).

whoof
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby whoof » 30 Jun 2020, 12:56pm

TrevA wrote:
djnotts wrote:
TrevA wrote:I think most manufacturers now produce a race bike and an equivalent endurance bike, horses for courses!

I loved my Domane, but I’m quite happy on the Cannondale with a flipped stem, even though it may offend some of the purists.


Judging by photos both those have bars below saddle, so still pretty unfriendly for many folk.

Also thin on the ground are nice carbon with low gearing now that triple road stuff all but disappeared and/or flat bars. The former more important to me than front end height.


My winter bike and touring bike are better in that respect. As an ex-racer, I’m still reasonably flexible, though getting less so as I get older.

The Cannondale is on loan from my son in law, until I can sort a new summer bike. He’s a bit shorter than me, hence the small frame and low front end.

I’m also looking for the holy grail of a reasonably priced, high front end, carbon frame. The Planet X Pro Carbon looked promising, but it’s been replaced with the Evo, and I’m not sure of the dimensions of that. With a frame only, you can spec your own groupset, or transfer from another bike.



All looks OK to me.

Regarding bars lower than saddle being uncomfortable. I ride to work all year around many of my colleagues are amazed that I put up with unbearable suffering day after day. They know I must be suffering as they have had a go at riding a bike. Their legs hurt, they were in a lather of sweat, their backside took 4 days to recover and at the first sign of a hill they were gasping for air. It must be like this for me every time I ride to work. So as a result they avoid this misery by driving to work.

It doesn't occur to them that their legs and lungs ache and they are covered in sweat because they are really unfit as a result of driving to work. If you try to persuade them the you can ride in quite comfortably using no more effort that walking and by using gears on the hills even these can be tackled quite easily, they're having none of it. You need to be a Olympic athlete to be able to ride in such a manner.

Similarly, when it comes to riding in a relatively low position many people know for a fact that it is very uncomfortable as they have tried it and found it to be so. As above it might be alright for a professional athlete but not a mere mortal. However, if you look up thread there is a post from someone returning to cycling who found their position from yester year now uncomfortable. The bike hadn't changed but previously when they stood and looked down they could see what shoes they were wearing now there was a slightly stretched jumper. It was this addition of a belly that made the position uncomfortable.
There was a post on here quite a while back about what exercises you would be able to do at a certain age. One was the number of press ups. One member stated they couldn't do a single one but could ride their bike. IMO this would indicate a poor core strength and an improvement would benefit someone's general health.

There is another thread currently ongoing about stretching.

I wonder how many people are a little heavier than perhaps they might be, have relatively poor core strength and have low flexibility and are then saying that a saddle above stem position is uncomfortable? I have ridden like this for years. I'm not an elite anything but I'm not over-weight do a bit of upper body work and some stretching and can comfortable ride 200 miles. As what's his name said perhaps 'it's not about the bike'?

Jamesh
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Jamesh » 30 Jun 2020, 3:20pm

NickJP wrote:All my bikes are setup like that. It amuses me when I see the wannabes trundling around with their bars six or eight inches below the saddle because "that's how the pros do it".

Image


Shocked leather saddle on a carbon bike!!

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kylecycler
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby kylecycler » 30 Jun 2020, 4:24pm

Oceanic wrote:
NickJP wrote:Image


That looks like an Open Mind with a Carbon steerer tube?

That brings to mind one of my other concerns about high bars on racey carbon bikes with low front ends - steerer tube strength.

(I’m aware that some people get round the problem by gluing a long aluminium tube inside the carbon steerer to reinforce it, and you may well have done that).

Open actually do that to their steerers - it's a technique developed by Gerard Vroomen when he was at Cervelo - he's one of Open's two founders - so NickJP's Open will already have it - of course, you have to ask yourself why they go to the trouble!

Otherwise you're right to be concerned about too many spacers with a full carbon fork (as opposed to a carbon fork with an aluminium steerer) - there tends to be too much leverage.

It's also possible, though - and highly advisable, apparently - to fit a long compression plug inside where the stem attaches to the steerer, unless it has anything similar to the Open's insert (which it's unlikely to have). This is carbon expert Raoul Luescher's cautionary video about carbon steerer compression plugs, some of which are seriously inadequate:


Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Marcus Aurelius » 30 Jun 2020, 4:38pm

It’s horses for courses.

6123670B-8EA8-4A8D-9B6B-848A182E427F.jpeg


That’s my best bike, it’s set up for ‘head down buttock up’ because that’s what it’s designed for.

2319FFD1-409A-4C83-89C2-972AF2E239AB.jpeg

This is one of the bikes I use for everyday stuff, it’s got a much more positive stem angle. That’s better for the sort of riding I do on it.

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 30 Jun 2020, 5:27pm

I still think the bikes in this thread would make more sense if the top tube ran from the seat tube, to just underneath the stem. Those who wanted a low position could fit a -17deg stem, the rest could lose the stack of spacers.

I looked up the details of Dolan's GXC. Although it has a very high front end and is marketed as a gravel bike, it comes stock with 28mm tyres and 50/34 11-28 gears. Sounds more like an ideal carbon Mamil bike to me.
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Last edited by Oceanic on 30 Jun 2020, 5:52pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheBomber
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby TheBomber » 30 Jun 2020, 5:48pm

This is carbon expert Raoul Luescher's cautionary video about carbon steerer compression plugs, some of which are seriously inadequate


In case anybody’s not in the mood for the whole video, jump forward to around 7mins for the demonstration. Interesting. Thanks Kyle.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby The utility cyclist » 30 Jun 2020, 7:23pm

I've two knackered shoulders, one from rugby and one from an off, so being in the drops for long periods can be tough
I'm fine with a higher front end but long reach so when I'm on the hoods that's relatively fine.
My solution is to buy frames that many would say are too big for my height/IL without having to resort to the 'endurance' frame which aren't as racy in their handling.
I've 25mm of spacers under the stem and flipping it upwards would look ugly IMO, not only that but if my injuries worsen with age I don't want to then have to consider other options because I cut the steerer too short simply because of fashion and some people who use language to denigrate peoples choices!
People having a "rant", criticising others bike choice/set-up, and/or highlighting it as a negative plus using the 'mamil' term is atypical of some people with nothing better to do than moan, they should mind their own business :x

Image

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foxyrider
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby foxyrider » 30 Jun 2020, 8:45pm

To many on here, my carbon plaything (i played 7000km on it last year!) is well slammed with @170mm difference from tos to tob - thats despite @ 30mm of spacers under the stem. Its set like that because thats where i'm comfortable, i've got long arms and legs for my height. Otoh this is what i've done the same mileage on so far this year.

DSCN6332.JPG


Yes i know, shock horror, its not carbon and it doesn't count more than 14 gears (thank Covid for this being my steed, i can't get to my others atm). The geometry is different to the carbon, its a bigger frame for starters, but the bars are still below the saddle (which i would actually raise by @ 2cm but its beyond the max line already!) I do most of my riding on the hoods which actually puts my hands not far off the same position as on the carbon, again the stem on the old skool threaded set up is as high as it goes.

So i'm not riding 'slammed' for fashion or historic reasons, although i did race over a 25 year period, but because thats where i'm most comfortable. Of the two, for me, the carbon is by far the more comfortable even on its max 23c tyres, the steel above can just squeeze (and i mean just) 25c tyres which make it a bit less rattly.

I'm certainly not a mile muncher like some forumites but my shortest ride this year is 60 miles and it has wandered north of 100 a couple of times so comfort is important to me for perhaps 6 hours in the saddle. Given the response when people ask how far i've ridden i guess this is not usual and the typical 'Mamil', IME, will consider twenty five to be a fair ride, forty a marathon so they've already signed up to not be comfortable and if slammed 'is good enough for the Pros, well its good enough for me.' They aren't looking for comfort, it matters more that they have the latest team shirt, bragging rights on the gear they are riding and look (in their eyes at least), well pukka!

What bike should they be riding? the one they want to ride whether others like the aesthetic or not, the Velominati and contributors here are not the style police however much some wish they were! :lol:
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 30 Jun 2020, 8:46pm

The utility cyclist wrote:My solution is to buy frames that many would say are too big for my height


The proportions of that bike look about right to me.

Did you just have a rant about people having a rant? ;-)

NickJP
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby NickJP » 30 Jun 2020, 9:41pm

kylecycler wrote:
Oceanic wrote:
NickJP wrote:Image


That looks like an Open Mind with a Carbon steerer tube?

That brings to mind one of my other concerns about high bars on racey carbon bikes with low front ends - steerer tube strength.

(I’m aware that some people get round the problem by gluing a long aluminium tube inside the carbon steerer to reinforce it, and you may well have done that).

Open actually do that to their steerers - it's a technique developed by Gerard Vroomen when he was at Cervelo - he's one of Open's two founders - so NickJP's Open will already have it - of course, you have to ask yourself why they go to the trouble!

No, the Open fork doesn't come with an aluminium insert. I bought an insert from Zinn Cycles and glued it in, though. It extends to about 30-40mm below the upper headset bearing: https://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html.

Wound-Up forks come with an aluminium sleeve inside the carbon steerer.

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 30 Jun 2020, 10:36pm

For many the conversation seems to be veering towards the aesthetics of raising the handlebars.

I’m more interested in how this will affect the bike’s handling. That’s why I asked the original question about which frames are available that are designed to be used with high bars.

It seems to me that raising the bars to well above where the designer intended them to be, will significantly move the riders weight on to the back wheel. Is this not a concern for others? Maybe it matters less than I think it does?
Last edited by Oceanic on 30 Jun 2020, 10:55pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jamesh
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Jamesh » 30 Jun 2020, 10:38pm

I don't think mamils generally visit this forum far to uncool!

8 speed is probably the average gears for folk on here to which a mail wouldnt wave at!!

I have a new mamil summer top the world's championship jersey from last year I beg forgiveness for when I ride it.

It's a lovely top by santani more like a skin suit tbh.

But to counter it I have a bright orange holdsworth replica jersey too!

Cheers James

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kylecycler
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby kylecycler » 30 Jun 2020, 10:54pm

NickJP wrote:No, the Open fork doesn't come with an aluminium insert. I bought an insert from Zinn Cycles and glued it in, though. It extends to about 30-40mm below the upper headset bearing: https://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html.

Wound-Up forks come with an aluminium sleeve inside the carbon steerer.


Oh, right, I thought I'd read it was on the Open but obviously not. Think it was on some Cervelo and 3T forks anyway, if only as an option. I reckon it's well worth it for the peace of mind, and it lets you run the bars at a 'sensible' height safely.