Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

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djnotts
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby djnotts » 1 Jul 2020, 7:58pm

20200531_112133.jpg
Saddle and bar top level for this over 70 y.o.

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Trigger
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Trigger » 1 Jul 2020, 8:30pm

To be honest I think it looks worse on some bikes more than others, a lot can pull it off when done properly, you can tell the obvious "I bought the wrong bike" types instantly though.

I guess there could be another explanation, and that is perhaps they've been owned by older guys who rode primarily in the drops on old horizontal steel framed bikes and the bar height is actually set up for saddle to drops rather than the more common modern standard of saddle to hoods.

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kylecycler
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby kylecycler » 1 Jul 2020, 9:45pm

A1anP wrote:The oblivious group sounds like me, though not always. I did stop once halfway down a descent after feeling that something was wrong with the steering. It turned out that I was shivering uncontrollably after being caught out in a squall. Still not very pleasant :lol:

There might well have been 'something wrong with the steering' in the sense that shivering is one of the factors that is known to bring on 'shimmy' - speed wobble.

In other words, it's you shivering to begin with so it's not the bike, but then that sets off speed wobble in the bike, so then it's the bike.

Nothing to do with handlebar height as such, of course, although weight distribution is another factor to do with shimmy. It's a mysterious business, though, so let's not go there, at least not in this thread!

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 1 Jul 2020, 10:33pm

kylecycler wrote: although weight distribution is another factor to do with shimmy. It's a mysterious business, though, so let's not go there, at least not in this thread!


I couldn’t help myself, I had to...

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/bl ... ution.html

-Moulton‘s explanation of how raising the bars (on a bike designed for racing) can cause speed wobble.

PH
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby PH » 2 Jul 2020, 12:06am

Oceanic wrote:I couldn’t help myself, I had to...

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/bl ... ution.html

-Moulton‘s explanation of how raising the bars (on a bike designed for racing) can cause speed wobble.

I didn't read it all, but he dismisses your theory about weight distribution right at the start
You will adjust your riding position accordingly and weight distribution is probably not important enough to be even thinking about.

NickJP
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby NickJP » 2 Jul 2020, 12:36am

Valbrona wrote:Can't you do a bike ride without a tin of baked beans and gas cooker?

I like farting.

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Oceanic
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Oceanic » 2 Jul 2020, 8:12am

PH wrote:
I didn't read it all, but he dismisses your theory about weight distribution right at the start


Later in the article he goes on to say this...
If a person buys this same bike and sets it up in a more upright position because his physical limitations do not allow him to ride like a pro. They should then accept the limitations in the design of the bike which after all is designed as a racing bicycle, and if it develops a speed wobble at 45 mph. the rider should consider either a change of position or keep the speed below 45.


I’m not suggesting that anyone with a bad back should try to ride in a low position, but I am asking which bikes have been designed for the, seemingly large, group of riders who want an upright position, but still want to ride a bike that is superficially similar to a racing bike.

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Paul Smith SRCC
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Re: Carbon frames for Mamils with high handlebars.

Postby Paul Smith SRCC » 14 Jul 2020, 12:15pm

Oceanic wrote:...I’m not suggesting that anyone with a bad back should try to ride in a low position, but I am asking which bikes have been designed for the, seemingly large, group of riders who want an upright position, but still want to ride a bike that is superficially similar to a racing bike.

It depends on each individuals personal perception of what an upright position is of course and this will vary, bike brands should have done sufficient R & D to design a range of bikes that do indeed cater for the "seemingly large group of riders who want an upright position, but still want to ride a bike that is superficially similar to a racing bike". Understandably they will cater for the majority and not the minority and personally I believe the respected brands have done just that.

With the correct bike fit then even those riders with a bad back can normally still cope with a reach and drop to the bars, all be it more conservative than a rider with more flexibility. Very few drop bar bikes with the stem set flat will have no drop at all, but expect endurance bikes to offer a shorter and higher front end than the bikes set up to be quicker. Using Trek as an example I've drawn their Endurance bike the Domane so that I could compare it to their faster focused Emonda, both with the same saddle height/set back and both with 30mm stem spacers; look how much more conservative the Domane reach and drop to the bar is. Note a professional rider will often desire even lower and although they would normally have bikes based on a particular model they may well be lowered even further to cater for their demands. Although these more aggressive bikes are made for consumers to buy it's often to special order only as most normal people can't cope with them.
CTC Trek Emonda SLR 56CM.jpg

CTC 2021 Trek Domane SL4 56cm.jpg

Of course the drop to the top of the bars @ 26mm versus 80mm may to some be just a number; but how does that translate to comfort? A bike fitter will often set their jig so the rider can feel that difference when they are having a sizing fit to work out what size in what model. I include myself as someone who needs a more upright position due to long term bad back, I'm 56 and literally struggle to get past my knees attempting a toe touch! The bike below is my own Van Nicholas Yukon, I've had it since 2007 and I've set it up to be as low as I can comfortable cope with yet still ride up to 100 miles. It's a similar size to both the Trek bikes, even with my bad back I have a drop to the top of the bars @ 55mm. If I was considering those Trek bikes my personal conclusion would be that the Emonda is to aggressive for me but the Domane would be perfect, I'd actually remove some stem spacers and still achieve what for me is a conservative bike fit; in my case removing all of them.
CTC_Van_Ncholas_Yukon_2007.jpg

CTC 2021 Trek Domane SL4 56cm Paul.jpg

Endurance bikes as you'd expect are tuned back versions of the more focused faster bikes. In my experience I have noticed the majority of riders will find them if anything a bit to conservative interms of reach and drop to the bars, you will see many will do just what I have done in that second drawing immediately above and remove spacers; quite often all of them. There are of course some who will need them all in and maybe even flip the stem 'up' to achieve a more level position.

For those who need something even higher many hyrbrids can offer a similar riding experience, the Trek FX below is smilar size to all those above with same saddle height and set back and the bars are higher than the saddle and that's before you add the 15mm bar rise to the grips.
2021 Trek FX Sport Large.jpg