Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

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GideonReade
Posts: 90
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby GideonReade » 28 Jul 2020, 3:46pm

Hi, I reckon my early noughties Pinnarelo deserves new brake blocks, as the old ones sound dry and grindy on the rims. Not too worn down, but I understand (do I?) that the compounds gradually deteriorate over time.

The existing blocks are one piece (not in holders, no idea if original, although if not it's my own work), and have a thick ally spacer washer behind each pad so it reaches the rim. I just did the same brake job on 'er outdoors' even older Trek with Shimano 600 brakes, and the Ultegra blocks for that don't have the spacer and use shorter bolts. I therefore understand that at least *these* Campy calipers have maybe 10mm wider space than *those* Shimano calipers. Both bikes are on skinny rims for 23mm tyres.

The Ultegra blocks nearly fit on the Mirage calipers if I use the spacers and bolts from the old Campag blocks - same thread, but unfortunately, the sort of cover piece of the Ultegra blocks sits unevenly on the Campag spacer, making it a very poor fit or needing a big washer too or trimming.

It's not urgent, so I should buy some more suitable blocks. But availability seems very poor (SJS, Wiggle...). Most "Campag blocks" seem to be the slide-in sort, but I don't see anyone selling the holders. I imagine I could use *most* Shimano-spaced blocks (one piece or sliders), with a little attention to the back face chosen, and the existing bolts & spacers. But the bike is a fair weather/light use bike. And pretty.

Any suggestions for one piece Campagnolo-type/fit blocks or slide-in holders? Assuming I mean Campagnolo type, not early-noughties-Mirage-type?

Also happy to be directed to any overall explanations of these spacings... Even Harris Cyclery seems silent on the subject :shock:

Brucey
Posts: 39884
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby Brucey » 29 Jul 2020, 1:04pm

modern holders (campag or shimano pattern) can be respaced quite easily because they mostly use an M5 threaded bolt into a sleeve nut on the brake block holder; this means that a longer M5 bolt can be fitted even if the spacers added end up making the original bolt too short.

However 'modern holders' don't fit every older caliper that never had them to start with, because the slots in the arms are sometimes too narrow for the sleeve nuts used. A little remedial filing of the brake arms will sort this out.

This may sound like heresy but I would use brake blocks which use shimano/sram/tektro pattern inserts, simply because there is more choice in available brake block insert compounds.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GideonReade
Posts: 90
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby GideonReade » 29 Jul 2020, 8:07pm

Hi Brucey, thanks for that. But, unusually, I don't fully understand you?

1. I've actually got quite a pile of blocks & holders for vee/canti, which have a threaded post projecting from the back of the holder, to go thru the slot on the brake arm, and a sleeve nut to hold it on.

2. I also see lots which are similar to that, but the "sleeve nut" has a head like a bolt

3. The other style I can see, for caliper brakes, have a threaded hole moulded into the holder or block, and a bolt (strictly a screw?) thru the brake arm slot to hold it on. This the only type where one could substitute a longer bolt?

I don't see any with an internally threaded cylinder projecting from the back of the block/holder.

Have I misunderstood, or just somehow not seen the products of which you speak?

I found an old catalog of parts on Campags website, and it looks like all models use the type I marked 2 above, except bottom end Mirage and Xenon, which use 3. Perhaps that's why so many online for Campagnolo might not fit.

slowster
Posts: 1489
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby slowster » 29 Jul 2020, 8:40pm

GideonReade wrote:I don't see any with an internally threaded cylinder projecting from the back of the block/holder.


Image

The cartridges above are Ashima Shimano pattern. Ashima also make a Campagnolo pattern version, although it's not clear precisely in what respects it is the same as Campagnolo, i.e. just the inserts or also the fit to some or all Campagnolo caliper arms:

Image

Brucey
Posts: 39884
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby Brucey » 29 Jul 2020, 8:52pm

GideonReade wrote:Hi Brucey, thanks for that. But, unusually, I don't fully understand you?.....

…..I don't see any with an internally threaded cylinder projecting from the back of the block/holder.

Have I misunderstood, or just somehow not seen the products of which you speak?.


Image
Ashima brake blocks (for shimano type inserts)

Models from Clarks, Ashima, Shimano and others are built this way. Obviously it isn't the only way brake blocks can be made, but it might be the one that will most easily adapt to your circumstances.

Obviously if you add an extra spacer between the brake block and the arm, the diameter of the captive sleeve nut may not be relevant any more, since it may not poke out far enough to enter the slot in the brake arm anyway.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brucey
Posts: 39884
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby Brucey » 29 Jul 2020, 8:59pm

oh that is spooky, used the same photo.....(cue twilight zone music....)…. :shock:

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AndyA
Posts: 454
Joined: 21 Mar 2009, 9:16pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby AndyA » 29 Jul 2020, 11:42pm

I think these are the type fitted to Mirage, Xenon and Veloce.
Image
https://www.condorcycles.com/products/c ... 3378608522
I bet if the OP gave them a clean and maybe a scrub with some emery, same with the rims, normal service would be resumed

GideonReade
Posts: 90
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby GideonReade » 30 Jul 2020, 8:51am

Cheers AndyP. Firstly - yay! - they do indeed look just like the existing ones. Interesting that they are advertised there as also fitting Veloce, as, according to Campagnolo parts catalog, Veloce was fitted with the type with threaded stud in block, and headed sleeve nut to hold it on. Which suggests perhaps that the brake caliper slots are the same size Mirage/Veloce, meaning I could perhaps use the more widely available upper range blocks as well.
Although Brucey's idea of using Shimano pattern if possible makes sense in my case as most of our bikes use them.
Finally your remark about cleaning - see my OP - I indeed am not sure if the old blocks problem is bulk/chemical degradation/drying or just some surface phenomenon or even an urban myth. Does anyone know? Certainly these brakes feel a bit off, but there's lots of wear left in the shoes. Maybe I should post anew on that?

Brucey
Posts: 39884
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby Brucey » 30 Jul 2020, 9:06am

Brake blocks often go hard over time. I never rated those one-piece brake blocks to start with, and old ones that have gone hard....meh....

If you are going to get one-piece brake blocks you may as well get some that are toe-adjustable rather than fixed...?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GideonReade
Posts: 90
Joined: 4 Jul 2010, 10:46pm

Re: Brake blocks or holders for Campagnolo Mirage calipers?

Postby GideonReade » 30 Jul 2020, 3:20pm

Thanks for all the help. Interestingly, Condor's website specifically stated that their Campagnolo cartridge holders were not suitable for brakes with one piece shoes. I'm not sure why, possibly the flat area where the shoe (or catridge) abuts the brake arm is bigger on a one piece, and the arm not hard enough to support the smaller flat of a cartridge. Possibly it's marketing tosh. I imagine it can be sorted somehow, but as the existing shoes are probably 15 years old, I caved and just bought the standard replacements for the next decade...