Campagnolo Record high flange hub issue, PLEASE HELP!

[touringben]

Ok so a bit or background first:

I am at best an enthusiastic amateur when it comes to bike maintenance, however I am happy to take on a range of jobs.
I recently got a nice set of used wheels for my tourer as the old ones were pretty worn out.
Both of the new (to me) wheels are old wide flange hubs on modern Mavic rims and I set about cleaning re-greasing the hubs with (i thought) no issue.

After riding on them for a few weeks i started to hear a pinging noise which initially took to be a spoke, or possibly freewheel issue. After checking the spoke tension and dismantling and rebuilding the freewheel the noise persisted and i eventually tracked it down (to my surprise) to the front hub.

This is a Campagnolo record high flange. I once again took it apart and am slightly flumaxed by what i found: the bearing on one side looked a bit dry (despite my recent re greasing) and odder still they appear to have changed colour and gone slightly brass/bronze coloured!
The cone also had a little discolouration and there was a very faint mark in the ball race as well.

I think the dust covers are threaded on these and i can't seem to remove them. Annoyingly i can't remember if I removed either of these during the initial service. If there were damage to the dust cover could this cause the issue? I wouldnt have thought it contacted any of the moving parts?

This is a lovely hub on an otherwise lovely wheel so i truly hope its not toast!
Can anyone shed any light on my plight?!

[touringben]

Also as to replacing parts does anyone know where i might be able to source a set of new cones (without breaking the bank)
I also read on Classic Lightweights that the bearing cups are replaceable on these

[touringben]

I'le try to add some photos to try to illustrate what I mean

[drossall]

I've never come across threaded dust covers on Campagnolo hubs. Usually they just lever out, but with care so that you don't bend the cover.

One of the joys of classic Campagnolo hubs is that you can replace everything including bearing surfaces. I did read that different hubs (Record, Nuovo Tipo, etc.) took different cones, but I know that there's also quite a lot of interchangeability. So check exactly what model you need, but you may be able to get an equivalent if it's not available. Mercian and others are good sources of spares.

With the photos you've provided, I'd replace the ball bearings but not the cones. You've not shown the bearing surface, nor said exactly which generation of large-flange hub you have (threaded? freehub?), but if that surface is similar to the cone, I'd leave it as well.

I've tended to use Campagnolo bearings, but various people have said that you're better just getting high-grade ones from a bearing supplier (high-grade i.e. more exactly matching the intended size).

If you do need to replace the bearing surface, you knock out the old one with a tool and fit a replacement with a press. No doubt various people here will suggest ways to improvise. Or Mercian will do the job for you, or try Baker's Bikes at Bishops Stortford.

[touringben]

Thanks so much drossall that's really helpful!

Do you have any suggestion as to the cause of the problem?

Sorry for the lack of photos of the bearing surface, I have temporarily re-greased and resembled the hub but will order the bearings as soon as i can.
Do you happen to know what size i should be getting? The bearing surface is in a similar condition to the cone, probably slightly less wear then the cone in fact so maybe its still serviceable?

I'm not sure of the exact model but here are a couple of photos:

[PT1029]

In your bearing photo, half the balls are silver, half are brown. Usually a sign water got in one side of the hub and the result was rusty balls. How the grease looks depends on the grease. Some grease forms a uniform emulsion, some grease stays much the same, with drops if water mingled in it.
If you didn't use the hub much while in this state, the cone/cup will possibly be ok.
As I recall, Recond cones and Tipo cones are different. Some Campag hubs I recal used slightly different sized balls, from memory, Brucey remembers which.

[touringben]

In your bearing photo, half the balls are silver, half are brown. Usually a sign water got in one side of the hub and the result was rusty balls. How the grease looks depends on the grease. Some grease forms a uniform emulsion, some grease stays much the same, with drops if water mingled in it.
If you didn't use the hub much while in this state, the cone/cup will possibly be ok.
As I recall, Recond cones and Tipo cones are different. Some Campag hubs I recal used slightly different sized balls, from memory, Brucey remembers which.

Yes the balls were uniformly brown on one side, the bike is my daily commuter so it gets about 1.5 hours riding a day.
Having repacked they hub with fresh geese might i be ok to use the hub until spares arrive?

Other than cleaning the bikes only been ridden in the rain once since the hub rebuild, id be surprised if water got in but its possible of course.
Could a damaged dust cover cause these issues?

[alexnharvey]

Could your cleaning regime have led to water in the bearings and also grease breakdown?

What grease are you using and how committed are you to continuing to use your hubs?

There are some excellent threads about grease which you will find in the 'too good to lose' index thread in this forum.

A commuting bike in the UK almost inevitably sees wet weather use, even if it is only an unexpected shower on what was forecast to be a dry day. I would like a pair of those hubs but I am not sure they are adequately sealed for wet weather commuting. Following some of the grease threads I use semi fluid grease with solid lubricants and corrosion inhibitors. If I don't the bearings end up looking like yours, rusty. Unfortunately I'm not sure if your dust covers will retain a semifluid grease and you might need a thicker grease. You can still look for a grease with corrosion inhibitors though.

If you will consider different wheels then hubs with the highest levels of sealing should be sought, although these still benefit from better grease.

[slowster]

I would like a pair of those hubs but I am not sure they are adequately sealed for wet weather commuting. Following some of the grease threads I use semi fluid grease with solid lubricants and corrosion inhibitors. If I don't the bearings end up looking like yours, rusty. Unfortunately I'm not sure if your dust covers will retain a semifluid grease and you might need a thicker grease.

It looks like the hubs have the standard grease port in the middle of the hubshell with a clip on cover. It looks to me like they also have small holes in the dust shields through which grease can be injected with a grease gun nozzle (at least it looks to me like a hole is visible at the 12 o'clock position in the OP's second photograph).

I don't understand why the hubs have both the central gease port and the holes in the dust shields as well. I have a pair of old wheels with Campagnolo Tipo hubs with holes in the dust shields, and use a grease gun with Finish Line Teflon grease. As you say, the shields would not adequately contain a semi-fluid grease - even surplus Finish Line grease oozes out around the dust shield for a while after greasing.

[tatanab]

I would like a pair of those hubs but I am not sure they are adequately sealed for wet weather commuting.

They are fine. I used Campag hubs for decades on machines used daily. The difference between then and now is that in those days I would strip and regrease (ordinary Lithium grease) annually. All bearings (hubs, pedals, bottom bracket at least) were treated the same, an annual maintenance, since none of our bearings were sealed to the degree that seems to be expected these days - a degree that makes most things almost maintenance free.

[Brucey]

the balls in a Campagnolo Record front hub should be 7/32". Both the cup insert and the cone for this hub are particular to it; it is best if you use the correct things. If you want to try something else you can do provided you are prepared to accept some (considerable) risk. This risk can be mitigated by carrying out some tests.

However I don't think that you strictly need any new parts, from what I can see in your pictures. It very simply looks as if the grease that was in the hub was rubbish and the water got in. You don't say what grease you used but I've seen similar results with cheap lithium based greases. A good way to spoil your hub bearings as quickly as possible. Mixtures of rubbish grease and water start corrosion and this soon turns the balls slightly brown coloured. As soon as the lubricant is corrupted any slight imperfections in the bearing surfaces can cause the bearing to run noisily. The bearings will also be wearing ~x10 or ~x100 or more faster than normal.

Some further comments:

1. I don't advise that you remove the dust cap unless you are going to change the cup ballrace. The reason for this is that the dustcap is very easily damaged, invariably doesn't go back in straight, and removing it is pointless anyway; it merely makes cleaning slightly easier.

2. If you buy new ball bearings they need to be genuine campag ones or the best grade you can buy (eg Gr10). Cheap balls in 7/32" size will probably be worse (less round, less consistent in size etc) than the balls you have, even if they are obviously imperfect eg via water ingress.

3. You can keep the hub bearings in good shape by simply using the lube ports in the hubshell and dust covers regularly; that is what they are there for. Use a nozzle type grease gun, loaded with decent grease. Excess can be wiped up.

4. When you adjust the bearings the correct adjustment is a little free play in the bearing that just disappears when the QR is used to tighten the wheel in the frame. The chances are excellent that your bearings were set too tightly if they were noisy when the water got in.

5. Daily commuting is hard on hubs of this sort. You can keep the bearings happy with regular shots of grease etc but I would not use such hubs for commuting on, for several reasons. These include that the rear axle will (unless supported by an outrigger bearing) be liable to break in hard use, and the hubshells are made from an aluminium grade which is highly susceptible to corrosion, especially if road salt is used. I've found this out the hard way BITD; I've had Campagnolo hubshells permanently damaged in just one ride through salt water corrosion.

Given that hubs of this sort are not ideally suited to commuting use and are now usually thought of more as valuable antiques rather than 'consumables' , I'd use something different for commuting on. These days there are any number of hubs which will be more reliable in all-weather commuting, where you will be able to buy spare parts more easily, and no-one will give a monkeys if they get wrecked either.

cheers

[Brucey]

FWIW the reasons for both dust cover holes and a central lube port are lost in the mists of time; possibly some race mechanics preferred on or the other, so campag fitted both (IIRC the dustcap holes only were fitted on FB hubs and the first Gran Sport models; the central lube port appeared later). But

a) if you keep an eye on what is coming out of the dust cover holes you will soon see if there is a problem or not. 'Nothing' or 'brown stuff' are both bad.

b) you can clean the hubs out pretty well in a couple of minutes using a can of thin spray lube (eg WD40) using the tube extension to spray in through the dustcap holes, and working the hub. Again the colour of what comes out tells you what is going on inside the hub. If the bearing surfaces are imperfect in any way the hub will make noises (similar to those heard if water gets in) if there is some preload and there is only WD40 inside the hub. After this treatment the hub will need a proper lubricant added.

c) you can use any of the holes to add lube to the bearings e.g. using a nozzle type grease gun. Using the centre hole is more likely to force old contaminated lube out of the hub.

In any bearing where the sealing is imperfect there will always be some crud in the bearing that shouldn't be there. However if the rate at which fresh clean lube is added greatly exceeds the rate at which crud gets into/is generated within the bearings then the lube will be mostly clean, most of the time. BITD professional race mechanics would service these hub bearings (even if it was only a lube purge) after every day's wet or muddy ride. If there is much weather about, once a year or whatever is unlikely to be sufficiently frequent.

cheers

[alexnharvey]

I would like a pair of those hubs but I am not sure they are adequately sealed for wet weather commuting.

They are fine. I used Campag hubs for decades on machines used daily. The difference between then and now is that in those days I would strip and regrease (ordinary Lithium grease) annually. All bearings (hubs, pedals, bottom bracket at least) were treated the same, an annual maintenance, since none of our bearings were sealed to the degree that seems to be expected these days - a degree that makes most things almost maintenance free.

That's interesting to know as historical context. Another question is whether you would choose to commute on what is now a valuable hub rather than use another currently produced hub that is better sealed from water, particularly salted water, and which can probably be repaired or replaced for the price of a record cone?

[tatanab]

That's interesting to know as historical context. Another question is whether you would choose to commute on what is now a valuable hub rather than use another currently produced hub that is better sealed from water, particularly salted water, and which can probably be repaired or replaced for the price of a record cone?

That was a constant niggle years ago. Do I use good quality kit for daily use or do I use cheaper that may be regarded as disposable. I never answered that one. One of my club mates always used cheap pedals on the basis that they get damaged in a crash so why buy fancy ones. Even in my working days (now retired) I used current parts, not parts that might be regarded as antique. These days, if commuting I would use my machine with a SON dynamo i.e "sealed" bearings.

[Brucey]

That was a constant niggle years ago. Do I use good quality kit for daily use or do I use cheaper that may be regarded as disposable. I never answered that one....

me neither, not to my satisfaction.

I suppose I ended up riding more miles on 'disposable' kit though, so maybe that was my answer even though I didn't entirely come to terms with it.

cheers