Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

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rmurphy195
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby rmurphy195 » 2 Sep 2020, 8:48pm

djnotts wrote:Why would anyone WANT a bike that lasts for years? I just get bored. By carbon touring what I really mean is big tyres and mudguards! A grand a year depreciation is neither here nor there.


HOW MUCH? ++++y hell, I don't have that level of depreciation on my cars, I expect to keep them for quite a while!
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
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djnotts
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby djnotts » 2 Sep 2020, 9:33pm

So I lose a grand a year across say 10 bikes. Cheap as hobbies go surely? 20 quid a week wasn't one night in the pub even 20 years ago. Not much more than a pint a night these days. M'cycles and even railway modelling in which I indulged for a few years cost more. I expect golf e.g. ditto.
And better for my health!

djnotts
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby djnotts » 2 Sep 2020, 10:45pm

PS I no longer have a car. The last one cost me less than 1500 quid in depreciation over nearly 10 years! But cars were never a "hobby"!

pliptrot
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby pliptrot » 3 Sep 2020, 9:28am

This is not a polemic, but a strongly-held belief: buy a fine steel bicycle from a reputed builder and you won't suffer much in terms of depreciation; Buy a generic composite frame (even a very, very expensive one from one of the pro-tour sponsors) and you will. I imagine those who have Italian composite frames would disagree, but if you spend more than a month's salary (for the sake of the argument let's say that is 2500quid, which is the average (whatever that means) UK salary) on a frame alone you will probably engage in some self-justification. Impertinent after word: how far do James Dyson (with his plastic junk from Malaysia) and other wealthy types skew the numbers so that poor people like me feel that junk plastic bicycles are even further out of our reach? (Prejudice declared).

thelawnet
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby thelawnet » 3 Sep 2020, 10:14am

djnotts wrote:So I lose a grand a year across say 10 bikes. Cheap as hobbies go surely? 20 quid a week wasn't one night in the pub even 20 years ago. Not much more than a pint a night these days. M'cycles and even railway modelling in which I indulged for a few years cost more. I expect golf e.g. ditto.
And better for my health!


Don't really need to justify yourself, and I don't think arguing that spending money on bicycles is cheaper than a heroin habit or whatever is a particularly good argument.

One can cycle on different size budgets. As long as we understand that we can do it for a very modest amount of money, it doesn't particularly matter if we are wasting money by spending more than that sum.

Jamesh
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby Jamesh » 3 Sep 2020, 10:56am

I don't get the anti carbon sentiment tbh.

It's a material for good or bad.

I heard of as many damaged steel and titanium frames as carbon...

In many ways it's an ideal winter bike material as it dosen't rust or corrode.

Some carbon bikes are expensive to pay for R+D and marketing and materials.

But so are some steel bikes. In fact like for like quality steel is probably just as expensive. Alu framed bikes are cheapest by a good margin. I have all three materials and appreciate them for what they are.

I brought an pro level focus izalco carbon frameset for £250 so you dont need to pay the earth. Does need some decent wheels tbh!

My maxim in the pleasure derived from a hobby is inversely proportional to the amount spent on it.

Cheers James

Navara
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby Navara » 3 Sep 2020, 11:01am

Jamesh wrote:I don't get the anti carbon sentiment tbh.
My maxim in the pleasure derived from a hobby is inversely proportional to the amount spent on it.

+1!

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Sep 2020, 3:35pm

What some see as a natural progression in technology others see as heresy :lol:


Usually the UCI who see things as heresy..

That's why you're still riding a cycle designed in the 1800s, not one designed more recently.



Carbon is a material that isn't well understood by many - we have regular experience with metal, not with composites.
Making a bike that masses 3kg is all well and good, but it's probably only sensible for hill climb events.

horses for courses as they say - for an everyday transport vehicle a few extra grams and the ability to take a knock on the bike rack, as well as various tyre choices, full mudguards etc. are much more important than the material...

Mr Burrows has been using CF for quite a while, and is producing some rather marvellous looking 'everyday' machines in the stuff - structural chain case, stub axles, no top tube, so nice low step through....
The UCI would have a fit, but I imagine there is enough additional carbon on these to help support the frame in the event of an inadvertent knock or two.
The danger is that CF can fail in ways that aren't visible, and so you can go from 'happily riding' to 'moving above the ground with a collection of components loosely bound' without obvious warning.
No doubt such failures are exceptions, but the tendency with steel (for example) is for a failure to propagate, and the frame to 'soften' before it fails...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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mattheus
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby mattheus » 3 Sep 2020, 4:15pm

Here's one from France earlier this week. (rider uninjured, as far as I know):

Image

pwa
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby pwa » 3 Sep 2020, 4:26pm

The material I trust the least is aluminium. I have had several aluminium seat posts snap mid ride, with next to no warning, so I regard ally as something to put up with rather than relish. I try not to think about the fact my handlebars are made of the stuff. I have also had steel and titanium saddle rails snap, so those materials ain't totally in the clear. And I have seen broken carbon on other people's bikes. Maybe the problem is manufacturers just using too little material sometimes, in order to lure buyers who buy stuff according to absence of grams.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Sep 2020, 4:53pm

pliptrot wrote:This is not a polemic, but a strongly-held belief: buy a fine steel bicycle from a reputed builder and you won't suffer much in terms of depreciation; Buy a generic composite frame (even a very, very expensive one from one of the pro-tour sponsors) and you will. I imagine those who have Italian composite frames would disagree, but if you spend more than a month's salary (for the sake of the argument let's say that is 2500quid, which is the average (whatever that means) UK salary) on a frame alone you will probably engage in some self-justification. Impertinent after word: how far do James Dyson (with his plastic junk from Malaysia) and other wealthy types skew the numbers so that poor people like me feel that junk plastic bicycles are even further out of our reach? (Prejudice declared).

I bought my unused KTM carbon frameset as used by the KTM conti pro team (generic if you like) direct from the sponsor a fair few seasons back,,it cost me 1/2 the price of a decent off the peg steel frame never mind a made to measure, in any case most people won't buy a carbon frame on its own, they'll buy it as a whole bike. I bought a 2010/11 ish NOS Specialized Sirrus (read gravel/cmmuter/touring/road etc) full carbon frameset for £250 from totalfitnessBath 2 years ago.
Not that long back PlantX were selling Ultegra level carbon bikes for £1000, last year I saw a NOS carbon bike with 10 speed (5700) that was selling for under £600 direct from a shop,
Currently you can buy full carbon CX framesets for cantilevers (or Vs/miniVs) from Paul Milne cycles for £450, these are the exact same frames that were provided to Team Sunweb.
So called "junk" plastic isn't as expensive as you think it is, you just have to bother to look past the bigotry and then actually not trouble yourself with what some people spend on bikes, it actually makes cycling cheaper for those who don't have deep pockets because there's a plethora of quality bikes for not much money that crop up for sale!

pliptrot
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby pliptrot » 3 Sep 2020, 6:17pm

The utility cyclist wrote:I bought my unused KTM carbon frameset as used by the KTM conti pro team (generic if you like) direct from the sponsor a fair few seasons back,,it cost me 1/2 the price of a decent off the peg steel frame never mind a made to measure, in any case most people won't buy a carbon frame on its own, they'll buy it as a whole bike. I bought a 2010/11 ish NOS Specialized Sirrus (read gravel/cmmuter/touring/road etc) full carbon frameset for £250 from totalfitnessBath 2 years ago.
Not that long back PlantX were selling Ultegra level carbon bikes for £1000, last year I saw a NOS carbon bike with 10 speed (5700) that was selling for under £600 direct from a shop,
Currently you can buy full carbon CX framesets for cantilevers (or Vs/miniVs) from Paul Milne cycles for £450, these are the exact same frames that were provided to Team Sunweb.
So called "junk" plastic isn't as expensive as you think it is, you just have to bother to look past the bigotry and then actually not trouble yourself with what some people spend on bikes, it actually makes cycling cheaper for those who don't have deep pockets because there's a plethora of quality bikes for not much money that crop up for sale!


Maybe. But the fog of marketing and the lack of clarification about materials, processes, and so-on make most us suspicious. It is normal when someone is selling something with an advantage that they promote that advantage heavily. I have yet to see that with carbon fiber; weight aside.

mattheus
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby mattheus » 4 Sep 2020, 3:29pm

It's pretty much all going to landfill too :(

Metal bikes can be recycled (in addition to lasting a lot longer in the first place).

fastpedaller
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby fastpedaller » 4 Sep 2020, 4:39pm

pliptrot wrote:
But the fog of marketing and the lack of clarification about materials, processes, and so-on make most us suspicious. It is normal when someone is selling something with an advantage that they promote that advantage heavily. I have yet to see that with carbon fiber; weight aside.


From my perspective, the threat of a sudden breakage from CF would make me wary about buying one. The QC control is what matters, and how can one tell if the resin/fibre is as it should be, especially on critical regions like head tube/downtube? With a steel frame these regions are, of course, equally critical, but with a handbuilt frame and a skilled builder one would expect the joints to be good. The extended temperature tollerance of more recent tubing compared with say 531 possible suggests a failure is even less likely?

peetee
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Re: Yet another reason to avoid carbon frames

Postby peetee » 4 Sep 2020, 4:46pm

mattheus wrote:It's pretty much all going to landfill too :(

Metal bikes can be recycled (in addition to lasting a lot longer in the first place).


A valid point that has been made before and is easily overlooked. Perhaps it’s the common-place sight of rusty scrap bikes in recycling centres and on the back of ‘Steptoe’ trucks that makes us overlook this important consideration.
Winter had arrived in the land of Kernow. Along with it came wet roads and cool winds.
“Oh, my wheels and coupling rods!” Peetee exclaimed.