Front Lights in Daylight

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby The utility cyclist » 1 Sep 2020, 1:22pm

Jdsk wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:... and with next to zero increase in cycling journeys since the mid 00s we've seen a massive increase in cycling serious injuries over the same period.

Screenshot 2020-09-01 at 12.31.06.png
Screenshot 2020-09-01 at 12.31.21.png

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447674/pedal-cyclists-2013-data.pdf

Jonathan

PS: The image quality of those is limited by this site. Might be better if you open them ins a separate tab or window. Failing that try the linked report.

Distance has increased a small amount, journeys haven't, I've looked at the actual numbers of seriously injured using STATS19 and it's more since the mid 00s. On top of that the KSIs have dropped less than that for peds despite all these interventions/requirement to modify garments/lights etc.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby Jdsk » 1 Sep 2020, 2:27pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:... and with next to zero increase in cycling journeys since the mid 00s we've seen a massive increase in cycling serious injuries over the same period.

Distance has increased a small amount, journeys haven't, I've looked at the actual numbers of seriously injured using STATS19 and it's more since the mid 00s. On top of that the KSIs have dropped less than that for peds despite all these interventions/requirement to modify garments/lights etc.

Please could you tell us the figures and sources for your assertions about cycling journeys and serious injuries.

Thanks

Jonathan

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mjr
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Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby mjr » 1 Sep 2020, 3:52pm

OldLimey wrote:Although motorcycling is a different world, I took the experienced rider course three times in ten years, and it was always emphasized to wear bright clothing.

Respectfully, it's not really a surprise if a motorcycling trainer teaches the established orthodoxy, is it? Plus, it's far from certain that motorcycling research applies to cycling at about a fifth of the speed.

I had a yellow fluorescent over jacket (with sleeves) and it had white reflective strips around the arms, across the back and down the front. I've quit motorcycles, now, but in the twenty-seven years that I rode (in every kind of weather, winter included), I never had a car cross my path to make a turn.

And yet, I suffered that far more "right crosses" when I was cycling wearing fluo than since I quit, including two minor collisions - and they were only minor because I turned alongside the crossing vehicle.

You mention the rear mudguard being partially white. That may help with cars coming from behind, but what about those coming the other way in the dark? The driver is hardly likely to see pedal reflectors, so all you have is a front light, and it had better be a good, bright one.

Whataboutery! Yes, my light is a good one, with a wide rectangle of 40 lux up to 10m, plus a "scatter" sufficient to be visible (and illuminate road signs) a claimed 100 times that, but I admit, I've not walked half a mile in front of my ridden bike to check that. An oncoming driver won't be sure until they're pretty close whether I'm a bicycle or a slow-moving motorcycle which is far more likely to damage them.

Ever had your battery suddenly go low a mile or two from home?

Nope. Dynamo. I carry emergency lights to cover for wiring faults and so on, but they're tiny legal minimum things. Battery lights are only good for people who rarely ride in the dark IMO.

Reflective tires are good but not much help when a car is coming the other way and decides to turn across your path. So it still comes back to wearing something bright. Your life may depend on it.

No, it won't: your clothing is irrelevant in that situation if your front light is good enough.

And, for now, the car isn't deciding to turn. The driver is. Hopefully once the cars are deciding, we could be riding unlit and naked and it'd still not run us down.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Ross K
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013, 8:14pm

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby Ross K » 1 Sep 2020, 10:51pm

mjr wrote:Battery lights are only good for people who rarely ride in the dark IMO.


The reality is the complete opposite of your opinion.

Many brands, especially British-made Exposure, combine state of the art LED and battery technology to produce headlights on a par with automotive lights, some with road-specific beam patterns and dipping function, all with very long battery life durations and utter reliability.

I've ridden for years on pitch black rural roads with these lights. Even on wet tarmac you can ride safely at normal daylight speeds. They are so bright that I use the swivel mount to "dip" it for oncoming traffic, although such a thing is a rarity around these parts!

They also do a very good dynamo light.

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freiston
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Location: Coventry

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby freiston » 1 Sep 2020, 11:43pm

Ross K wrote:
mjr wrote:Battery lights are only good for people who rarely ride in the dark IMO.


The reality is the complete opposite of your opinion.

That's your opinion!
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)

hjd10
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Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby hjd10 » 8 Sep 2020, 11:08pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
hjd10 wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
And ROSPA also advised against DRL's but they were forced upon us!


I quite like DRLs now as I remember many years ago in the States noticing now much easier it was to see cars in the desert who had the side lights on.
Its all about being seen or rather conspicuity and how easy is it to notice things against other background objects.
My car has auto lights and they change over when the light level reduces, leaving them on at night time is poor design as I've noticed this a few times with cars on the motorway.
I guess its difficult for the cyclist now as all new cars have DRLs however there are some decent lights about now with long running times. I use dynamo lights on two of my bikes.

It absolutely isn't that at all, you are so wrong!
it's about taking the time and having the time (by slowing down) to actually look and see, not expect someone to change their behaviour or what they wear to offset your lack of bothering to look/give a carp about others so that they don't get hurt, that's utterly perverse. Not only that, it's being proven over history not to ever work in terms of safety of the vulnerable. Helmet, hi-vis and light increases for people on bikes and with next to zero increase in cycling journeys since the mid 00s we've seen a massive increase in cycling serious injuries over the same period. That's before you add in DRLs, supposed better safety of motors for those external t o the vehicle. It's done nothing to change safety, in fact the stats bear out that cycling has gotten less safe. Supposed safety interventions have done anything but.

DRLs are yet another intervention that simply implodes and makes matters worse, and people on bikes using lights in the day time are trying to conform but actually help normalise something that is detrimental to cycling overall, something else that detracts away from the real reason/s that people get harmed.

In your opinion... And you are correct that I dont give a Carp. What I can say is that driving a car I like the fact that DRLs are used as other vehicles are easier to see.
For cycling should we be thinking about using a different coloured light to stand out? You can argue until you are blue in the face about DRLs and the are still not going to be going away anytime soon.
Last edited by hjd10 on 8 Sep 2020, 11:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

fastpedaller
Posts: 2577
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby fastpedaller » 8 Sep 2020, 11:20pm

hjd10 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
hjd10 wrote:
I quite like DRLs now as I remember many years ago in the States noticing now much easier it was to see cars in the desert who had the side lights on.
Its all about being seen or rather conspicuity and how easy is it to notice things against other background objects.
My car has auto lights and they change over when the light level reduces, leaving them on at night time is poor design as I've noticed this a few times with cars on the motorway.
I guess its difficult for the cyclist now as all new cars have DRLs however there are some decent lights about now with long running times. I use dynamo lights on two of my bikes.

It absolutely isn't that at all, you are so wrong!
it's about taking the time and having the time (by slowing down) to actually look and see, not expect someone to change their behaviour or what they wear to offset your lack of bothering to look/give a carp about others so that they don't get hurt, that's utterly perverse. Not only that, it's being proven over history not to ever work in terms of safety of the vulnerable. Helmet, hi-vis and light increases for people on bikes and with next to zero increase in cycling journeys since the mid 00s we've seen a massive increase in cycling serious injuries over the same period. That's before you add in DRLs, supposed better safety of motors for those external t o the vehicle. It's done nothing to change safety, in fact the stats bear out that cycling has gotten less safe. Supposed safety interventions have done anything but.

DRLs are yet another intervention that simply implodes and makes matters worse, and people on bikes using lights in the day time are trying to conform but actually help normalise something that is detrimental to cycling overall, something else that detracts away from the real reason/s that people get harmed.

In your opinion...

So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

hjd10
Posts: 276
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 9:43pm
Location: Originally from Lancashire but now in Lincolnshire

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby hjd10 » 8 Sep 2020, 11:26pm

So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in the daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

If that is what you'd like to happen, crack on. We all make our own choices and try to remain safe. Up until recently most of my traveling has been in the car however recently I've started commuting. Now I'm trying to increase my visibility on the road using my judgment, I've got a dayglow Sam Brown belt and I'm running dynamo lights.

Quick link to an article about lights on bikes.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/group-tes ... per%20cent.

tim-b
Posts: 1555
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby tim-b » 9 Sep 2020, 8:42am

Hi
And in other news Osram is producing laser car lighting for BMW and Audi (link) with a main beam of 600m (twice that of LED)
Why, when 96m is the current Highway Code stopping distance from 70mph?
The laser can cycle so quickly as to be imperceptible to the human eye and could be used in future as an early warning radar-type system for drivers. The bonus from a cyclist's POV is a smaller, more efficient emitter than needed for LED lighting; when cycle lamps are developed it truly will become an arms race :)
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby Jdsk » 9 Sep 2020, 8:46am

fastpedaller wrote:So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

That would be logical if pedestrians were causing as much harm to others as drivers of motor vehicles. They aren't. It isn't.

Jonathan

fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby fastpedaller » 9 Sep 2020, 9:24am

Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

That would be logical if pedestrians were causing as much harm to others as drivers of motor vehicles. They aren't. It isn't.

Jonathan


I don't understand your logic - are you saying that cyclists should use front lights in order that cyclist don't harm other road uses?
Lighting everthing isn't necessarily the answer - maybe the answer is encouraging people to LOOK PROPERLY (which lights don't achieve) and to take accountability for their actions.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby Jdsk » 9 Sep 2020, 9:29am

fastpedaller wrote:I don't understand your logic - are you saying that cyclists should use front lights in order that cyclist don't harm other road uses?

I wasn't saying anything about cyclists.

And I don't think that making yourself more easily visible and encouraging and enabling others to LOOK PROPERLY are alternatives. They and other interventions can all contribute to improving safety.

Jonathan

Icsunonove
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Location: Hampshire

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby Icsunonove » 9 Sep 2020, 9:30am

Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

That would be logical if pedestrians were causing as much harm to others as drivers of motor vehicles. They aren't. It isn't.

Jonathan

???? I thought the alleged benefits of DRLs are twofold: 1. To be more visible, so hopefully people in more dangerous vehicles don't crash into you. And 2. To get people to see you coming so they get the F out of your way. (Think Mondeo man doing 90mph in the outside lane of the motorway 20+ years ago).

So No.1 would apply to a pedestrian walking along, or crossing, a road as much as to a cyclist.

My opinion, for what it's worth (i.e. very little), is that No.2 is probably the reason for the normalisation of DRLs and the 'logic' of No.1 is the consequence of this new thinking. The million dollar question is are we all actually safer with all these daytime lights? My suspicion has always been that once everything has a light on it we'll be back pretty much to where we started.... after all visibility to the human eye/mind/consciousness is a relative thing.

fastpedaller
Posts: 2577
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby fastpedaller » 9 Sep 2020, 11:20am

Icsunonove wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:So is your opinion hjd10, that pedestrians should wear lights in daytime? because that's what we'll be heading towards with your logic!

That would be logical if pedestrians were causing as much harm to others as drivers of motor vehicles. They aren't. It isn't.

Jonathan

???? I thought the alleged benefits of DRLs are twofold: 1. To be more visible, so hopefully people in more dangerous vehicles don't crash into you. And 2. To get people to see you coming so they get the F out of your way. (Think Mondeo man doing 90mph in the outside lane of the motorway 20+ years ago).

So No.1 would apply to a pedestrian walking along, or crossing, a road as much as to a cyclist.

My opinion, for what it's worth (i.e. very little), is that No.2 is probably the reason for the normalisation of DRLs and the 'logic' of No.1 is the consequence of this new thinking. The million dollar question is are we all actually safer with all these daytime lights? My suspicion has always been that once everything has a light on it we'll be back pretty much to where we started.... after all visibility to the human eye/mind/consciousness is a relative thing.


You've summed-up my thoughts perfectly!

bgnukem
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Re: Front Lights in Daylight

Postby bgnukem » 9 Sep 2020, 2:19pm

Just put my dynohub back on for winter, and I certainly feel safer with my powerful front lights back on vs. the battery front light I've been using as a get-me-home measure recently. It certainly feels like a struggle to be noticed among a sea of car lights.

I generally ride in the middle of the road, where possible, when passing side roads having had so many drivers pulling out in front of me, lights or no.

An Exposure front light would be nice but £200-300+ is a bit steep. I don't rate the cheaper Cateye/Sigma battery lights I've used over the years, for reliability or battery life....