Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 12 Sep 2020, 10:12pm

Hi,
Just swapping some to cogs on cassette and twiddled the axle, NDS lock nut loose :?
Thats a first by me, I normally do up pretty tight.
Lock up drive side hard first.
Nip up NDS, adjust for some minor play and tighten NDS lock nut.......not as tight as DS.
That way its easier to fine adjust the play for when you tighten the QR skewer.

When I tried to tighten the locknut the problem was that these cones are four sided for dual spanners..............less flat and rounded to for grip?
Went for a ride but still need to fix slippage on top cog after newish chain fit, so will try and solve problem before next ride.
Suggestions...............I am now inclined to thread lock the cones?
I can only imagine that the cone on the NDS has loosened due to precession.
In the past on this forum is it the NDS which unscrews?
Fortunately no damage that I have detected yet, previously the hub was submerged and the freehub suffered noise which is still present but has not changed, have regreased hub after flooding.
I am thinking that the Quando locknuts which use a large washer between the cone and locknut NDS are not very clever...........there is a knurl on both sides of nut!
That will be it then as the knurl will not lock well on a flat washer.
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Brucey
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby Brucey » 12 Sep 2020, 10:32pm

a lot of cheap hubs have serrations on (both) the mating face of the locknut. These can yield when QR pressure is applied and this means the hub locknuts can loosen even though they were originally tight. NDS cones precess to loosen so this is relatively harmless. DS cones precess to tighten which can destroy the hub.

If you remove the serrations from the side of the locknut that bears against the cone this may improve matters. Using threadlock on the DS cone is not a bad idea, but not necessary on the NDS cone.

cheers
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 12 Sep 2020, 10:59pm

Hi,
Yes I thought of removing serrations after I posted.
Remind me, does balls and plain bearings behave differently in precession?

Oh just thought its not the bearing but the thread that suffers precession :?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 13 Sep 2020, 11:33am

Hi,
Okay so it's normally drive side which suffers as it tightens the bearing when it comes loose and then destroys.
Doesn't explain why the non-drive side: my axle came loose.
So is there any precession on axle cones or is it simply settling and fretting?
If as you say left-hand should tighten due to rotation of the bearing And right-hand vice versa, then it has nothing to do with precessional at all.
So it was never necessary to have a left-hand thread on the driver-side axle?
If precession Is caused by a radial load which moves around even a part of a rotating set of parts, e.g. the pedal bearing in use.
And we assume that the load on the wheel bearings does not tend to move at all, with exception to applying the brakes?
My quango axle has a disk brake, which I use quite a lot and rely on for main part of braking a heavy loaded bike.
So simply poor design which was not help possibly buy a bike which is always been heavily loaded and my emphasis in use on rear brake.
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby Brucey » 13 Sep 2020, 1:24pm

if you remove the serrations as suggested you should find out if they are making a difference or not.

FWIW the radial loads on the NDS bearing are at their highest when the brake is on. Loosening can be quick, but precession can likewise be slow.

Remember also that when the QR is done up, the locknut is pushed hard against the cone by the QR pressure (or track nut), so a locknut can prevent the cone from moving in service, even though it might be 'loose' when the wheel is removed.

When I was a kid the chap in the LBS habitually didn't bother tightening the locknuts on the left side of SA 3s hubs more than finger tight; experience told him that it didn't make any difference. I think he was right, up until you take the wheel out of the frame, when you have to worry about the bearing adjustment moving.

cheers
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 17 Sep 2020, 12:24pm

Hi,
To cut a long story short.
Checked the drive side lock nut.........tight and managed to force it a bit.
Decided to do the Brucey zero slack freehub and the shims were 0.5 - 0.45 -0.07 or there abouts..plus a larger dia shim to prevent the balls dropping through the ratchet pawls.................. :oops: :lol:
Do shimano freehubs have a larger dia shim too? I forget now.
Any way had apart on a tray so not to loose any and two dropped through.
The gap looked ok ( do you always go for minimum gap in balls?) on the bottom which what must of been an additional one from the top race :?
Then one short on top which I added.
0.07 removed and nipped up the lock ring (remembering to not put the thinnest shim on top, but this is now 0.45) to give desired clearance....it was a bit slacked when I dismantled.
How far do you normally do up the lock ring.........in degrees of 360, so as to not squish shim and so it will not undo, not that they tend to come lose anyway?

When I added the NDS locknut there was less knurl one side so I put that inner.
Adding thread lock was not foremost on my mind when trying to get bike back together as you would also have to degrease first.

The disc on NDS means the bolts hamper getting cone spanner in which means that backing off the cone is impossible to get desired clearance for axle bearings.
So this is probably how I ended up with a slack NDS cone in the first place as I normally force the cone back and forth to get correct clearance......tighten with lock nut.......loosen with cone.
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2020, 1:56pm

Q. how tight do you tighten the DS cup after adjusting the freehub bearings?

A. Well, you know how tight it was when you undid it?

About that tight.

cheers
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 17 Sep 2020, 2:08pm

Hi,
Brucey wrote:Q. how tight do you tighten the DS cup after adjusting the freehub bearings?

A. Well, you know how tight it was when you undid it?

About that tight.

cheers


To clarify-
Freehub-
How tight do you lock up freehub bearing lock ring (axle cup freehub cone combined part)?
Do you ever adjust play (minute) by adjusting how tight?..............without squishing shims!

I always tighten DS axle cone out of the wheel. Tight!
Assemble axle and nip up the locknut NDS to the NDS cone................Then I adjust for play by winding the lock nut in (spanner on DS locknut...Spanner on NDS lock nut).
If I have wound in too much I normally wind out NDS cone with cone spanner, and hold DS locknut with spanner....that way only works if DS is very tight.
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2020, 2:22pm

as above. I can't make it any clearer; it needs to be tight. If it isn't tightened against the shims, it'll tighten itself, which means that if you have not set the shims correctly, it'll seize up.

It needs to be tight.

Tight.

if you want a number, about 20ftlbs. More than this if you have disturbed the base shim and it isn't sitting in the same orientation as previously.

cheers
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Re: Quando 8S Hub Loose Lock Nut (NDS)

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 17 Sep 2020, 6:46pm

Hi,
Thanks, as I said it was definitely I would say not very tight when I undone the lock ring.
I've never had any trouble undoing any of these before.
I can't remember every bit I take apart, but the grease inside looked familiar, so I would say I was the last one to do it up before, it's definitely quite a bit tighter now, especially as I have no fear of wrecking the thin shim, Like I did once before :)
I would say it's probably pretty close to 20 foot pounds.
Most of the shimano ones I've taken apart Have not been the particulary difficult to undo not like they're done up that tight, Like pedals and bb's.
like everything else that you do in time I try not to make the same mistake twice, I won't be putting another free hub on or swapping a cassette without servicing the free hub bearings if there is slack.
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Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.