List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

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Brucey
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2020, 5:49pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:... It might perhaps be easiest (least difficult) to put into practice by returning the bottom bracket to being an actual bracket beneath the frame rather than part of the frame as it has been for the last hundred years or so.


what, so it breaks? That is what happens to most dangly bottom bracket designs, unless they are beefed up to a ridiculous extent. There is a reason why more bikes are not made like that.

From the manufacturer's perspective the frame is a relatively cheap component, not worth compromising on once you have decided to have some kind of expensive gearbox/motor or whatever. For the user's perspective the frame is the heart and soul of the bike, and built into it are the choices for equipment that might be used. However this shouldn't come with a major weight, functionality or cost penalty. Otherwise we'd all be riding around of framesets with eccentric bottom brackets and swappable dropouts etc. As it is, manufacturers which have offered such features built into their frames have found sales are often less, not more, in good part because the frame is heavier and more expensive, but also because when being used in one mode it is clearly neither fish nor fowl.

If gearboxes and motors were such a good idea you wouldn't ever want to change them for something different...?

cheers
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freeflow
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby freeflow » 4 Oct 2020, 6:04pm

Brucey wrote:If gearboxes and motors were such a good idea you wouldn't ever want to change them for something different...?

cheers


But there is a large market in electrifying 'ordinary' bikes, so no difference really. Once your legs get older why not electrify on old friend.

Brucey
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2020, 6:21pm

Bolt-on kits? Not a terrible idea in principle; such things exist to fit standard bikes and are not inherently much inferior to more 'integrated' solutions, even if the cheaper ones in actuality are.

By contrast it might suit the manufacturers to make e-bikes other ways (as mentioned above) but I abhor the implicit waste in such arrangements. When the electrical system (inevitably) fails on a typical modern e-bike, what you are all too often left with (after you have decided that the thing is either too expensive or actually impossible to repair) is a bike that is ridiculously heavy, which clearly isn't designed to be pedalled very far as it is, and can't be converted to a 'normal' bike easily either. A moped with an engine that won't go, more or less.

The 'dream' is of effortless riding, infinite battery range, and the bike isn't noticeably heavier than normal. The reality is often something which fails on all points, and is so heavy that you can't even pick it up without risking a hernia. The idea that you should heavily compromise a standard bike from the start in order to someday have the choice to really ruin it by strapping this stuff on it seems a bit odd to me. It isn't really necessary either.

cheers
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Bmblbzzz » 4 Oct 2020, 6:23pm

Brucey wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:... It might perhaps be easiest (least difficult) to put into practice by returning the bottom bracket to being an actual bracket beneath the frame rather than part of the frame as it has been for the last hundred years or so.


what, so it breaks? That is what happens to most dangly bottom bracket designs, unless they are beefed up to a ridiculous extent. There is a reason why more bikes are not made like that.

I was thinking that it would be easier to make a modular, swappable bottom bracket if it did not have to fit into any frame tubes. But yeah, that would make it weaker. Maybe if it were wedged between down and seat tubes like the old Thanet design? But that would be restricted in space. So I guess it'll have to be part of an enlarged, beefed up junction area, like seen on many electric bikes - or those designed for Pinion gearboxes.

From the manufacturer's perspective the frame is a relatively cheap component, not worth compromising on once you have decided to have some kind of expensive gearbox/motor or whatever. For the user's perspective the frame is the heart and soul of the bike, and built into it are the choices for equipment that might be used. However this shouldn't come with a major weight, functionality or cost penalty. Otherwise we'd all be riding around of framesets with eccentric bottom brackets and swappable dropouts etc. As it is, manufacturers which have offered such features built into their frames have found sales are often less, not more, in good part because the frame is heavier and more expensive, but also because when being used in one mode it is clearly neither fish nor fowl.

If gearboxes and motors were such a good idea you wouldn't ever want to change them for something different...?

cheers

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to change them. The idea was that people do like to change and experiment, more so with gearing probably than motors. Allowing a Pinion (or similar, yet to be invented, alternative) in addition to the possibility of chainrings, cassette and hub gears would be one more option in the same bike. I think there's someone on this forum who has three out of those four all in conjunction on his trike...

There's no point discussing specifics of something that doesn't exist. We're just throwing around the idea of modularity.

mumbojumbo
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby mumbojumbo » 4 Oct 2020, 6:32pm

by Labrat » 3 Oct 2020, 8:44pm

Some of this is just childish whinging.

Let’s look at huge innovations -

reliable e-bike motors and high capacity, relatively low weight battery packs.
High output Rechargeable LED lighting - offering us bulbs that don’t need replacing & batteries that aren’t the size of a housebrick. Only a few years ago we were all messing around with halogen bulbs and 4.5 volt flat batteries in ‘wonder’ lights.
Narrow-wide chainrings. Anyone remember the chainsuck triangle?
Decent, reliable hydraulic disc brake systems on road & touring bikes. No more polishing your rims with an eraser.
Mud guards that don’t rattle like a bag of spanners
Helmets so light and airy that you don’t feel like someone strapped a watermelon to your head


I like your list but you cannot say its childish to carp.I also think disc brakes are overkill and have never thought while riding "wish these brakes were more effective and really hard to maintain!"

PH
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby PH » 4 Oct 2020, 6:33pm

freeflow wrote:Pinion p1.18 is probably better as it gives greater gear range, sealed gears and allows easy changing of wheels for those who wish such a facility. There is a small weight penalty but the plusses greatly outweight that.

Swings and roundabouts - One of my Rohloffs is in it's forth frame* and at one time was being used in two (Not literally at the same time obv :wink:)

*Technically it's fifth, but one was a like for like replacement so I'm not counting it.

Brucey
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2020, 6:47pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to change them. The idea was that people do like to change and experiment, more so with gearing probably than motors. Allowing a Pinion (or similar, yet to be invented, alternative) in addition to the possibility of chainrings, cassette and hub gears would be one more option in the same bike. I think there's someone on this forum who has three out of those four all in conjunction on his trike...

There's no point discussing specifics of something that doesn't exist. We're just throwing around the idea of modularity.


If you want to experiment, it isn't difficult to borrow or hire a suitable machine before buying one.

The point I'm making is that there are reasons why modularity (as you conceive it) is not a favoured idea amongst either manufacturers or consumers. Otherwise you would be expected to pay more for a heavier, worse bike, just because you might want to change it in some way in the future.

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cheers
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speedsixdave
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby speedsixdave » 4 Oct 2020, 6:52pm

freeflow wrote:
... is probably better as it gives greater gear range, sealed gears and allows easy changing of wheels for those who wish such a facility.
...


This has led me down an excellent rabbithole leading to the interesting Norwegian Kindernay 14-speed hub gear, very similar in style to the Rohloff but with a slightly wider range of gears, hydraulic shifting, and most interestingly, a swappable outer hub shell so you can easily switch between wheels (e.g. 559 with big tyres to 622 with smaller). Apparently a bit lighter too. No idea on reliability as I think they've only been in the wild for a year or so but worth keeping an eye on if you like this sort of thing...
Big wheels good, small wheels better.
Two saddles best!

Brucey
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2020, 7:11pm

there is a distinct lack of 'customer reviews' of the kindernay on the internet. They have been supplying journalists with samples and/or test rides for four years now, but how many have actually been sold to paying punters?

cheers
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speedsixdave
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby speedsixdave » 4 Oct 2020, 7:41pm

Brucey wrote:there is a distinct lack of 'customer reviews' of the kindernay on the internet. They have been supplying journalists with samples and/or test rides for four years now, but how many have actually been sold to paying punters?

cheers


That is true, I'm googling right now. They are available to buy on their website right now for €1249+VAT which is fairly competitive with the Rohloff (assuming the thing works properly!). Additional hub shells are €119 which is pricey for a blank hub shell but cheap compared to an additional hub gear!

However - The pictures are of the beta-version. The final product may differ somewhat from the depicted product - which never fills one with confidence. I guess with any new product someone has to jump first though! If my Moulton had a disc brake mount and they had a decent drop-bar shifter I might have been tempted...
Big wheels good, small wheels better.

Two saddles best!

Brucey
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 4 Oct 2020, 7:44pm

well IIRC the whole thing was (partially or wholly) funded by a kickstarter campaign. Are all the kickstarters still waiting for their hubs?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby The utility cyclist » 4 Oct 2020, 9:54pm

Jdsk wrote:
cycle tramp wrote:...so when a customer like myself walks in to find that they don't have a part (5 speed screw on freewheel) but can get it next week (due to the parts supplier contract that they've signed) the bicycle shop has already lost out to someone like Amazon* who can supply it cheaper and get me the new part next day...
No wonder there's not too many bicycle shops left.

Why can't that small bike shop get parts as quickly as you?

I've put that whole logistics system as one of the big modern improvements.

Jonathan

PS: But it does mean that they need a whole new business model. That's not inherently either good or bad.

Because Amazon dodge paying tax like all the big companies, often taking their money from sellers whose margins don't take into account physical shops and often not even any stock as they themselves are resellers.
I've vowed never to buy anything from Amazon ever again.

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby PH » 4 Oct 2020, 11:24pm

speedsixdave wrote:That is true, I'm googling right now. They are available to buy on their website right now for €1249+VAT which is fairly competitive with the Rohloff (assuming the thing works properly!). Additional hub shells are €119 which is pricey for a blank hub shell but cheap compared to an additional hub gear!

The price is competitive with the list price of a Rohloff but a good bit dearer (Around 30%) that what you can actually buy one for
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff-internal-hub-gears/

They're both a big investment, but apart from the interchangeable shell, I can't see any advantage over something that's well tried and tested.

Mike_Ayling
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Mike_Ayling » 5 Oct 2020, 6:57am

PH wrote:
speedsixdave wrote:That is true, I'm googling right now. They are available to buy on their website right now for €1249+VAT which is fairly competitive with the Rohloff (assuming the thing works properly!). Additional hub shells are €119 which is pricey for a blank hub shell but cheap compared to an additional hub gear!

The price is competitive with the list price of a Rohloff but a good bit dearer (Around 30%) that what you can actually buy one for
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff-internal-hub-gears/

They're both a big investment, but apart from the interchangeable shell, I can't see any advantage over something that's well tried and tested.

It looks like the non ex box Rohloffs at SJS are not so popular any more.
I think the ex box is a great bit of kit.
Mike

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simonineaston
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby simonineaston » 5 Oct 2020, 9:50am

Didn't gears that you can change without dismounting come after those?
Fixie fans will pour scorn on the rest of us mere mortals' need to change gears, but yes - let's let Mr Sturmey & Mr Archer have their fifteen minutes! Oh and Mr Bowden, too. :-)
byyeee,
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