List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

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Si
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Si » 21 Oct 2020, 9:49am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Alternatives to telescopic are heavy, and unsprung weight affects handling.
If not then lateral stiffness, too many moving parts adds to complexity and cost.........then there's maintenance.....
The former may be a compromise but works well..........enough....


Sounds like you've not used them. Reality, back when they were more widely used, was better tracking, easier maintenance and less complexity. Weight , £ for £, was a little more but mostly down to being more expensive due to lower production. The main difference was sensitivity to smaller hits.

Of course they didn't catch on back in the day but are sort of making a comeback now on gravel bikes

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NUKe
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby NUKe » 21 Oct 2020, 11:03am

As you got onto Feet forward motorcycles some of the modern Scooters like the Suzuki Bergmann could be classed as such. BMW tried a version with roof the C1, but it didn't sell in huge numbers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1
I was going to buy one for Commuting to the train station as I could have ridden in smart work wear and park for free, but the job changed and I didn't need to commute daily. However they didn't appeal to many.
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swagman
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby swagman » 21 Oct 2020, 11:32am

I'm never felt happy with the ahead stem system.
To me clamping down onto spacers create s room for play on the bearings.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 21 Oct 2020, 11:50am

Hi,
Si wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Alternatives to telescopic are heavy, and unsprung weight affects handling.
If not then lateral stiffness, too many moving parts adds to complexity and cost.........then there's maintenance.....
The former may be a compromise but works well..........enough....


Sounds like you've not used them. Reality, back when they were more widely used, was better tracking, easier maintenance and less complexity. Weight , £ for £, was a little more but mostly down to being more expensive due to lower production. The main difference was sensitivity to smaller hits.

Of course they didn't catch on back in the day but are sort of making a comeback now on gravel bikes

No I haven't used them at all.
We have no less than five cruise ships in the bay at the moment, Been there weeks
People stand there looking in amazement and awe taking pictures and selfies.
I think one of them is the QE?
They might well be going into cold storage or scrapped any time soon?
My interest would be simply to get on board and look around the engine room.
Don't get me wrong if I saw a fork tomorrow and they were going relatively cheap I might even buy a set to try them out.
I already have some downhill telescopic forks that's full stanchion forks on one of my bikes.
interestingly after your post yesterday, I started thinking about my Flexi stems, which I had on my Halfords bike many years ago and it still on it now.
Flexi stems are very good at small movements, suspension forks are more suited to large amounts of shock and travel.
But as Brucey has said if there were some real advantages there then we to see them more in production.
I used to work on motorbikes full time, maintenance on them was pretty chronic time wise, you needed to look at your bike several times a week if you are driving it all year round,Off-road bikes needed several hours work for an even shorter ride.
My most maintained vehicle is one of my skip trainers which I ride more than any other bike at the moment and have done for a number of years, cars need A very small amount of maintenance in comparison.
Girder forks need quite heavy bushings otherwise you're going to get lateral flexing.
And Brucey mentioned feel, I had not considered that, but it's incredibly important thing as much as brakes need to have feel too.
where the fork is like leading link forks have extra bushes that you wouldn't normally see on telescopic forks.
As for hub centre steering, you need gimbals/universal joints, Well this looks very nice and complex and even pretty, and it must be very satisfying to make something like this work.
with modern day technology which would involve using a virtual solid model (computer aided design) it may well be possible to produce something which ticks all the boxes, But it's unlikely to have the simplicity of something like a leaf sprung De-Dion rear axle, or a MacPherson strut.
But we can dream of bit can't we :)
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 21 Oct 2020, 11:54am

Hi,
swagman wrote:I'm never felt happy with the ahead stem system.
To me clamping down onto spacers create s room for play on the bearings.

The worst thing about them is the fact you have to set the clearance by feel.
You do this with Threaded headsets to, but you can micro adjust them.
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Bmblbzzz » 21 Oct 2020, 12:49pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
swagman wrote:I'm never felt happy with the ahead stem system.
To me clamping down onto spacers create s room for play on the bearings.

The worst thing about them is the fact you have to set the clearance by feel.
You do this with Threaded headsets to, but you can micro adjust them.

Surely adjustment of both threaded and threadless headsets is completely analogue. Tighten until satisfied there's no play. Clamp front brake on, rock back and forward to check. Threaded requires a special spanner (or at least a large one), threadless an allen key. Turn until adjusted...

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby swagman » 21 Oct 2020, 1:29pm

On the ahead system the pressure on the bearings is applied along the height of the stem stack which allows for play through the leverage of the stem. Gradual play must happen through the movement of the stem.

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 21 Oct 2020, 1:36pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Surely adjustment of both threaded and threadless headsets is completely analogue....


you mean 'analogous' ?

Not really; threaded headsets allow displacement adjustment; (e.g. you know if you do 1/100th of a turn, that is about ten microns clearance...) but Ahead setups usually don't. You get to adjust the force (preload) on the bearings, in a rather unsophisticated fashion.

IIRC 'problem solvers' even make a thing that converts your ahead setup so that you have a screw threaded adjuster (with controlled displacement) for adjusting the bearings.

cheers
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Bmblbzzz » 21 Oct 2020, 2:52pm

No, I mean analogue. As in not digital, seamless, indivisible. This was in response to "micro adjust".

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 21 Oct 2020, 8:05pm

Hi,
There must be a lot of these knocking around in peoples garages?
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https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/pro-flex-755-gls-95-18579
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby mattsccm » 21 Oct 2020, 8:26pm

I suspect that much of =the leverage me=n=tion in a threadless h%eadset would be eliminated if they are set up properly. That is with out any spacers under the stem.

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Brucey » 21 Oct 2020, 11:46pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:No, I mean analogue. As in not digital, seamless, indivisible. This was in response to "micro adjust".


IME most threadless designs do not allow smooth adjustment; the wedge ring tends to stick in use and doesn't always respond well to attempts to make small adjustments; the first adjustment movement in a used headset very often requires a much higher force than subsequent ones. I think this is a good part of the reason why so many headsets of this type get 'murdered' by being overly preloaded; if it takes 2-3Nm to get anything to happen, it may seem reasonable to use at least that amount of torque on the top cap (it isn't BTW, it will wreck the bearings) .

In any event 'seamless vs not seamless' is a good description; 'digital vs analogue' rather less so I would have said.

cheers
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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby Bmblbzzz » 22 Oct 2020, 11:01am

No "vs".

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Re: List of recent 'innovations' of the cycling industry

Postby iandusud » 22 Oct 2020, 2:27pm

Brucey wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:No, I mean analogue. As in not digital, seamless, indivisible. This was in response to "micro adjust".


IME most threadless designs do not allow smooth adjustment; the wedge ring tends to stick in use and doesn't always respond well to attempts to make small adjustments; the first adjustment movement in a used headset very often requires a much higher force than subsequent ones. I think this is a good part of the reason why so many headsets of this type get 'murdered' by being overly preloaded; if it takes 2-3Nm to get anything to happen, it may seem reasonable to use at least that amount of torque on the top cap (it isn't BTW, it will wreck the bearings) .

In any event 'seamless vs not seamless' is a good description; 'digital vs analogue' rather less so I would have said.

cheers


I dislike threadless headsets. I just don't see how you can possibly, apart from by chance, adjust them so that there is no preload and no play. Good quality threaded headsets are a delight to adjust and are wonderfully smooth in operation. I used to recommend either Campag if budget allowed or Tange Levin, which were cheap and very good. I believe the reason the cycle industry has gone over to threadless is simply because it's much cheaper to make the fork and easier to assemble - it's a cost cutting exercise dressed up as some sort of advance when in fact it is a retrograde step.