Surly LHT - Discontinued

[cycle tramp]

But you CAN rely upon the dogged insistence of 80 million Germans (typically cycling five times as much as the average Brit) that "achtundzwanzig zoll" is THE BEST size for virtually all of the everyday and holiday cycling they do. That, together with their disposable income, guarantees the long-term availability, quality and great diversity in choice of touring tyres in ISO diameter 622, aka 700C, 28×1¾, 29er, call it whatever else you will!

'That the universal agreement has fixed has fixed on 70 cm as the proper size for wheels does not in anyway prove that this diameter is best. It simply proves that cyclists follow each other like sheep.'
Paul De Vivie, Godfather of the deraileur, Father of cycle touring and advocate of small wheels (who cycled over 15,000 km on 22 inch wheels)

[Brucey]

ah but if he'd had bigger wheels he'd still be able to buy tyres that fit, from his grave. You see it pays to think ahead you know....

cheers

[markjohnobrien]

Very expensive for the latest disc trucker model - even discounted at £650 - thru-axle only:

Compared to what?
I know Spa have done well to keep the prices down. But when I bought a Surly Ogre earlier in the year the price was comparable with the others on the shortlist. £120 difference between the cheapest and dearest, with the Ogre smack in the middle.

Compared to Surly (and Salsa as they are the same company) prices a few years ago. A concerted marketing effort increased the prices of Surly Ogre, Troll, and disc trucker to eye watering levels and the disc trucker 2021 model is the latest example of this at £750 rrp.

I was thinking of buying an Ogre frame and the price increased from around £550 to £800 from one year to the next and the link to the disc trucker in my post is symptomatic of this.

[PH]

Compared to Surly (and Salsa as they are the same company) prices a few years ago.

I find that without a time machine it's best to compare current prices.

[hamish]

They are also retiring the Troll and Pugsley. The end of the Pugsley is a big loss. You can still buy frames similar to both the Troll and the LHT but the Pug is fairly unique and is a brilliant design.

[alexnharvey]

Compared to Surly (and Salsa as they are the same company) prices a few years ago.

It find that without a time machine it's best to compare current prices.

I think maybe he is making a broader point that Surly increased the price of their frames significantly over the last 8-10 years, which along with other factors (inflation, currency strength etc) led to the UK price doubling. That may have had an impact on the viability of some models like the lht. It certainly took the model I would've been interested in, the cross check, out of my consideration.

If an lht frame had an RRP of 400-450gbp rather than 550gbp would there have still been a market for it?

[PH]

I think maybe he is making a broader point that Surly increased the price of their frames significantly over the last 8-10 years, which along with other factors (inflation, currency strength etc) led to the UK price doubling.

Yes, I got that and it's a point I hear made quite often. So, I asked what the comparison was. One click back from markjohnobrien's link takes you to Spa's frameset page, it illustrates two things, first what good value their own frames are! Then that the other three makes they stock, Surly, Brother, Genesis, are all at similar prices. I'm just suspicious of this idea that Surly have ramped their prices up, rather than it just being other factors that make many frames more expensive.
I like mine, but I didn't pay more for it because it's a Surly, it's true if I'd bought it a few years ago it would have been 30% cheaper, but that's equally true of the other frames I was considering.

[alexnharvey]

On the other hand, maybe the others have just followed Surly's pricing on the way up in a segment that has quite limited competition?

I think they're all milking it as their brands gained a following for what remain quite basic steel frames but which they then decided they could sell at a premium. To me, spa's pricing highlights that strategy very clearly.

I've also read it suggested that frame prices are sometimes kept artificially high so full bikes appear to be better value.

[cycle tramp]

ah but if he'd had bigger wheels he'd still be able to buy tyres that fit, from his grave. You see it pays to think ahead you know....

cheers

Actually the 22 inch wheel size is still around.. right now it's being promoted by the bmx/dirt jumper movement... but could just be the ultimate folding bike size wheel, between rider comfort and foldability..

As for the 559 size dying completely.. well it was around in the 1950's and it's still around now.... again, it's just been given new life by dirt jumping, and could well be given further life by electric bikes - where any pre-supposed marginal performance losses are of set by a stronger wheel..

Those of us of a cynical nature are expecting it to be re-invented in another 5 years, when everyone's got bored with the 650b size

[Thatsme]

Having owned one and taken it to Cuba in 2007, I found it great for straight line touring and a very solid bike when fully loaded. However, I found it to be an unresponsive and slothful bike, Surly have now shortened the chainstays & tweaked other bits of its geometry, which should really improve the handling. I sold my old one, I might consider buying the new one.

[Brucey]

...Actually the 22 inch wheel size is still around....

er, which is that then...? I dunno which one Velocio used, but IIRC there are at least three different 22" rim sizes.

The point I was trying to make is that unless you go out of your way to choose a tyre size that is truly obscure, the chances of you outliving it entirely are pretty remote. What tends to happen is that the winds of fashion blow and make 'better' tyres (or ones for fussy people perhaps) widely available in some sizes and not others. I have been known to be fussy too, BTW.

cheers

[pwa]

If the LHT is being discontinued but the Disc Trucker lives on, this is just a story of the market for rim braked tourers now seeming too niche for Surly to be bothered with. Maybe Spa will be moving the same way in a year or two.

[CJ]

As for the 559 size dying completely.. well it was around in the 1950's and it's still around now.... again, it's just been given new life by dirt jumping, and could well be given further life by electric bikes - where any pre-supposed marginal performance losses are of set by a stronger wheel.

A tyre size does not have to die completely to be deadly dull and a terrible choice for touring, where the inability to buy a decent replacement at any nearby shop - like any motorist might - can blow a gaping hole in your annual holiday.

I honestly thought, and hoped, that 559 would continue to be a standard size for MTB wheels for shorter riders at least, even after 29ers proved how much more easily a bigger wheel rolls. The difference is especially marked on soft ground, where resistance can vary by as much as the inverse square of diameter - or at best simply by the inverse. 29/26 = 1.115, squared = 1.244. I think you'll agree that an increase in drag of at least 12% up to 24% is a bit more than marginal!

Size makes nowhere near as much difference on the road, but that's not what MTBs are bought for. So when some bright spark realised they could sell every existing MTBer a brand new bike by resurrecting 650B (ironically the size that Geoff Apps, a British pre-MTB pioneer had used) the writing was on the wall for 559 as a do-anything tyre size. Still, I was amazed that it took only two seasons for it to disappear from all but the cheapest new bikes.

Dirt jumping isn't about going places, so rolling drag hardly matters there. Nor for electric bikes - a motor forgives a multitude of mechanical sins! So don't expect anything nice to pedal yourself for long distances from either of those trends!

I'm hopeful that 650B (ISO 584) may become the new do-anything 26in size, replacing 559 and 571 (590 already being obsolete). But even if that happens I'll be sad that 559 didn't remain in that role, as being appreciably smaller it was more useful to designers of bikes for small people and folders etc.

[SA_SA_SA]

559 has the advantage of just allowing its shod bike to squeeze into small lifts with front wheel turned and bike diagonal. Hopefully reasonable non-knobbly 26in by 1.75 (47 559) tyres will remain available the longest of 559 tyres.

[Brucey]

A tyre size does not have to die completely to be deadly dull and a terrible choice for touring, where the inability to buy a decent replacement at any nearby shop - like any motorist might - can blow a gaping hole in your annual holiday.

it is a fair point but the reality concerning car tyres is that there are (literally) hundreds of different tyre sizes/fitments/speed/load ratings out there and the most common outcome of needing a new car tyre is that you will have to wait until the next day for it to be delivered from the wholesalers. Recently a retailer refused to fit a tyre on my chum's car (even though the size, speed and load ratings etc were all correct) because the same manufacturer recommended a different tyre in their range for that particular vehicle. Having travelled to that stockist purely because they said they had that tyre in stock, my chum was no better off.

I have toured on 27" wheels where these were not commonplace and it was deemed prudent to carry a spare tyre. In the event of a wheel prang, buying a cheap 700C wheel seemed like it might be the best option. Years ago a chum broke both 27" wheels on tour and there was of course no bike shop nearby. It also turned out that his brakes didn't have enough spare drop to fit 700C wheels. So he spent a day on the bus to a town with a bike shop and came back with two cheap 27" wheels (which I didn't expect him to find), fitted the tyres (which had somehow survived) and we were on our way again, him with the salvaged campagnolo hubs from his old wheels in his saddlebag.

If you tour using disc brakes then any slightly smaller wheel will do, provided the hub fits in the frame. And there's the rub; there are so many so-called 'standards' for discs and disc hubs that it is like car tyres; the chances of finding a wheel (that fits at all) in stock at a retailers is slim, so it'll most likely mean a rebuild or a 'next day delivery' if you are lucky. I have had to rebuild wheels for people on tour before now (eg when the hub has broken) and I expect I will have to do the same thing again in the future, even if the wheel size is a relatively common one; too many 'standards' these days.... .

cheers