New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

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pwa
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2021, 7:14am

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Just a reminder,we are discussing a sub 2mm out of track fork


that is the sort of size of error that needs correction, and that good framebuilders don't let out of their workshop.

I have taken frames that are bent like a dog's hind leg and they have not been right until they are right, and when they are right they are better aligned than that.

cheers

And we look at our front wheel a lot, so if we are unhappy about an imperfection, even if it cannot be felt in the handling, we have it right in front of us all the time we are on the bike. Perhaps some people could cast that from their mind, but I'm not like that. It would bug me.

reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 8:17am

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Just a reminder,we are discussing a sub 2mm out of track fork


that is the sort of size of error that needs correction, and that good framebuilders don't let out of their workshop.

I have taken frames that are bent like a dog's hind leg and they have not been right until they are right, and when they are right they are better aligned than that.

cheers

And an error of sub 2mm won't make a blind bit of difference to how the bike rides.
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reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 8:21am

pwa wrote:
Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Just a reminder,we are discussing a sub 2mm out of track fork


that is the sort of size of error that needs correction, and that good framebuilders don't let out of their workshop.

I have taken frames that are bent like a dog's hind leg and they have not been right until they are right, and when they are right they are better aligned than that.

cheers

And we look at our front wheel a lot, so if we are unhappy about an imperfection, even if it cannot be felt in the handling, we have it right in front of us all the time we are on the bike. Perhaps some people could cast that from their mind, but I'm not like that. It would bug me.


A very slight wheel redish of between 1 and 2mm and it's not there at all.
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pwa
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2021, 8:28am

reohn2 wrote:
pwa wrote:
Brucey wrote:
that is the sort of size of error that needs correction, and that good framebuilders don't let out of their workshop.

I have taken frames that are bent like a dog's hind leg and they have not been right until they are right, and when they are right they are better aligned than that.

cheers

And we look at our front wheel a lot, so if we are unhappy about an imperfection, even if it cannot be felt in the handling, we have it right in front of us all the time we are on the bike. Perhaps some people could cast that from their mind, but I'm not like that. It would bug me.


A very slight wheel redish of between 1 and 2mm and it's not there at all.

I did suggest that, but it was said that doing that would adversely affect the handling. Front disc wheels are not symmetrically laced anyway, so there is no aesthetic objection to pulling the rim 1mm over to centre it.

There was a time when being 1mm away from perfect was deemed to be fairly good. I think we have come to expect near perfection. Your more relaxed attitude is a good thing.

Brucey
Posts: 42205
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 8:46am

reohn2 wrote:...A very slight wheel redish of between 1 and 2mm and it's not there at all.


that is not the case. As mentioned upthread by redishing the wheel you can either

a) get the contact patch of the tyre in the correct place on the road (which leaves the tyre twice as far off centre between the forks) or
b) get the tyre centred between the forks and have the steering twice as badly affected as it was before.

Not much of a choice is it?

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 9:04am

pwa wrote: ...... Your more relaxed attitude is a good thing.

Thanks

Story alert:-
There was a chap who registered on the forum a few years ago just to complain about the service he'd had from a well known midlands frame builder.
He'd had them build him a bespoke frame at great cost such was the paint job and chrome plating,anyway when he picked it up he found the the ETT was 5mm longer than spec.He was hopping mad.
I advised him to get a 5mm shorter stem but no,he wasn't having any of it and wanted the frame rebuilt,he'd been back the frame builder and was told it was within spec/tolerance.
Now strictly speaking he didn't get perfection but he could make it perfect with a slight change to the stem length.
The problem was he took it as an personal insult that the frame wasn't perfect.

And that's the problem,the OP can make it perfect in 20minutes with a spoke key.
He asks "should I expect NASA engineering precision" my reply was a simple one that corrected the slight defect.
In a situation such as this I ask myself would I prefer the hassle of returning the frameset or fork and waiting for it to be inspected to be told it's within spec or the retailer sending me another fork,or do I spend the twenty minutes with the spoke key backing off one side spokes and tightening the the side by approx 1/2 a turn?

If I let myself,I can get really irritated by some of the smaller anomallies of life,but then look around and realise just how lucky I am,I know that some people will find my analogy of the situation irritating in itself and claim it should be better than that,my answer is that some things aren't and in a situation such as the OP's it really isn't a problem at all when it can be corrected easily by 20 minutes work.
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pwa
Posts: 13667
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby pwa » 5 Jan 2021, 9:09am

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:...A very slight wheel redish of between 1 and 2mm and it's not there at all.


that is not the case. As mentioned upthread by redishing the wheel you can either

a) get the contact patch of the tyre in the correct place on the road (which leaves the tyre twice as far off centre between the forks) or
b) get the tyre centred between the forks and have the steering twice as badly affected as it was before.

Not much of a choice is it?

cheers

Doesn't that depend on the exact nature of the fork being "out"? There is theoretically more than one way in which a fork could put the wheel top 2mm to one side. The blades could be angled to one side, the blades and therefore the dropouts could be set at different lengths, or the dropouts could be brazed on slightly wrong. If the bottom of the wheel and the top are both 1mm too far to the left, and the wheel is parallel to a vertical line from the head tube......... I think I would get the fork out and try to fathom exactly what is going on , to see if re-dishing would fix it, or if it would make it worse.

brucelee
Posts: 205
Joined: 19 Feb 2009, 10:39am

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby brucelee » 5 Jan 2021, 9:24am

Brucey wrote:FWIW folk that put TAs through British winters can find another problem, which is that the TA tends to seize up.
Should we be using anti-seize on TA axle threads ? Pretty sure if got Alu drops but I'm presuming the surly ones are steel.
I actually get quite disturbed when I accidently put my front wheel in 'backwards' and that's much less than a mm out....

reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 9:55am

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote:...A very slight wheel redish of between 1 and 2mm and it's not there at all.


that is not the case. As mentioned upthread by redishing the wheel you can either

a) get the contact patch of the tyre in the correct place on the road (which leaves the tyre twice as far off centre between the forks) or
b) get the tyre centred between the forks and have the steering twice as badly affected as it was before.

Not much of a choice is it?

cheers

There are two ways this front wheel is out of line a)leaning caused by one fork leg longer than the other or b) the fork legs are unequally splayed.
In the case of a) yes redishing the wheel will move it further out of track ie; contact patch now sub 4mm out rather than sub 2mm out of track,if this is the case then leaving the wheel as is,is probably best and I concede the argument if this is the case

In the case of b) the wheel if redished will be in track and aligned with the rear.

I'll mention it again in case anyone's forgotten,we are discussing an anomaly of sub 2mm
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reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 10:04am

brucelee wrote:
Brucey wrote:FWIW folk that put TAs through British winters can find another problem, which is that the TA tends to seize up.
Should we be using anti-seize on TA axle threads ? Pretty sure if got Alu drops but I'm presuming the surly ones are steel.

Yep it's that simple :wink:

I actually get quite disturbed when I accidently put my front wheel in 'backwards' and that's much less than a mm out....

Yer easily disturbed :shock: :wink:
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GranvilleThomas
Posts: 125
Joined: 1 Apr 2015, 9:58am
Location: Caerphilly

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby GranvilleThomas » 5 Jan 2021, 10:16am

If the OP gets a fork replacement (possibly at great inconvenience) who can say if the replacement will be any better?

Could be the same or worse and still be within the acceptable tolerance range for the manufacturer?

We are all different but for me a 2mm discrepancy which surely equates to 1mm off centre would be perfectly expectable for me, even for a custom built product.

Valbrona
Posts: 2394
Joined: 7 Feb 2011, 4:49pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby Valbrona » 5 Jan 2021, 10:41am

There must be a way of realigning TA dropouts because how did the fork get built in the first place?
I should coco.

Brucey
Posts: 42205
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 11:43am

reohn2 wrote: ...And that's the problem,the OP can make it perfect in 20minutes with a spoke key.
He asks "should I expect NASA engineering precision" my reply was a simple one that corrected the slight defect....


still not the case, sorry.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

reohn2
Posts: 40674
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby reohn2 » 5 Jan 2021, 12:00pm

Brucey wrote:
reohn2 wrote: ...And that's the problem,the OP can make it perfect in 20minutes with a spoke key.
He asks "should I expect NASA engineering precision" my reply was a simple one that corrected the slight defect....


still not the case, sorry.


Suit yourself we differ in outlook,but perfection is never possible and an allowance for tolerance is alway present.
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Brucey
Posts: 42205
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New steel Fork ,wheel sits off center ,what tolerance acceptable?

Postby Brucey » 5 Jan 2021, 12:06pm

reohn2 wrote:... perfection is never possible and an allowance for tolerance is alway present.


you get a darned sight closer to it with a different fork design.

With different axle, brakes and dropouts this would likely take a few seconds with a file to sort out. As it is, that fork is best chucked in the scrap, because the stupid design of it does not allow (inevitable) problems with alignment to be corrected properly.

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~