New Campag 13 speed

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thirdcrank
Posts: 30544
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby thirdcrank » 4 Jan 2021, 2:17pm

... At the time, even 13 teeth was regarded as the very edge of what was sensible. ...


I wonder if some of that thinking was caused by 13 teeth being as small as it was usually possible to go on a freewheel? (I wrote "usually" as a precaution against being reminded of the five tooth cog.) ie Some of the criticism was based on reluctance to switch to a different technology.

It's not always easy to identify which developments represent a genuine improvement.

bgnukem
Posts: 565
Joined: 20 Dec 2010, 5:21pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby bgnukem » 4 Jan 2021, 4:43pm

Pretty sure Brucey has posted on here before about the inefficiency of smaller sprockets 12T and below - chordal losses - not to mention faster wear.

13-up cassettes are hard to find now but I'm planning to change to 13-28 on my winter and commuting bikes, with larger 'rings' for a slight increase in lifespan and maybe efficiency....

Jamesh
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Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Jamesh » 4 Jan 2021, 5:10pm

I've just gone to 9spd on my winter bike and now campy move the goal posts!!

I run X1 on my winter bike by staying in the middle ring!!! Keeping spinning as it warms you up!!

Cheers James

mattsccm
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby mattsccm » 4 Jan 2021, 5:35pm

Why question the economy/wear? That's just a factor of such a thing not necessarily a disadvantage. Not everyone worries about cost. Those that do can happily run a single speed bike based on salvaged bits.

hamster
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Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby hamster » 4 Jan 2021, 5:44pm

mattsccm wrote:Why question the economy/wear? That's just a factor of such a thing not necessarily a disadvantage. Not everyone worries about cost. Those that do can happily run a single speed bike based on salvaged bits.


I've never yet found rapid wear to be an advantage. :?

mikeymo
Posts: 1885
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 5:52pm

tatanab wrote:However, I agree, I have never seen the sense in indexing a front changer since the position may need to be adjusted according to which sprocket is in use.


I built a bike up. First time I've done that, and first derailleur bike I've ever had.

9 Speed triple, Sora brifters, Sora RD and FD. Spa crankset.

I rode that bike for 2 years, nearly always in the middle ring. Then I found out there was something called "trim" on my shifters.

So for all that time it had worked perfectly, with no chain rub. A while ago I managed to get through every single chainring/sprocket combination including big/big and small/small without any rub.

So either I'm some sort of bike idiot savant, or extremely lucky, but the warnings about indexed front shifting didn't seem to apply to me.

Then I changed the FD for a 105 triple. Because, well, "if it ain't broke keep fixing it till it is". Also the 105 is shiny. I can make it rub, but only if I really try, and even then only in very particular situations.

Indexed front shifting plus very occasional trim works just fine for me.

Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Brucey » 4 Jan 2021, 5:57pm

hamster wrote:...I've never yet found rapid wear to be an advantage. :?


me neither. But I was discussing this very point with a younger chap in the cycle trade (in the context of 'latest thing' cassettes which cost hundreds) and he mentioned that he'd experienced folk who appeared not to mind it, and if anything tended to brag about it. He said (and I am not paraphrasing much)

yeah, they are all, like, "I've worn out three cassettes this year, look at the size of my ****** ***b..."


so it takes all sorts... :roll:

for many (most?) people cycling is an antidote to conspicuous consumption, but not all....

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

backnotes
Posts: 418
Joined: 16 Jan 2011, 8:36am

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby backnotes » 4 Jan 2021, 6:10pm

Mick F wrote: When that one wears, I'll be buying another four.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... g_id-10431?


Not from there you won’t at the moment. Their minimum order to the UK now seems to be 149.84 euros (which looks a lot like £135). I think this is the new VAT limit with the EU, so they are only doing orders big enough for them not to have to collect your VAT for HMRC.

This makes the minimum order 51 11t sprockets, which should last you a few years!

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foxyrider
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Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby foxyrider » 4 Jan 2021, 6:15pm

hamster wrote:
As the groupset is Ekar, a gravel groupset, this has nothing to do with pro racing and everything to do with numbers marketing.


This is the pertinent point - this is not aimed at pro's directly but at the growing numbers of 'gravel' riders around the globe. If you are daft enough to buy into 'gravel' and 1x you will no doubt be in the market for Ekar 13.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

Stevek76
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Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Stevek76 » 4 Jan 2021, 6:30pm

Such a thing as pro gravel racing does actually exist. I can see 1x being beneficial there for a subset of the same reasons it is in MTB. Also if you're doing such a thing I guess you're not to bothered about the wear on the kit you're being given.

mikeymo wrote:So either I'm some sort of bike idiot savant, or extremely lucky, but the warnings about indexed front shifting didn't seem to apply to me.


Depends on chainstay length ime. If you're on a non race bike with longer stays it's not really a problem, never needed the trim positions on my 3x9 (sora front, alivio back). On hyper short race geometries the chain angle becomes more severe and likely to rub.

Brucey
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Brucey » 4 Jan 2021, 7:01pm

Stevek76 wrote:...Depends on chainstay length ime. …..On hyper short race geometries the chain angle becomes more severe and likely to rub.


depends on a lot of things. But mainly how hard you push on the pedals and how flexy everything is. [The difference in chainstay length between a road bike and a touring bike is rarely much more than an inch or an inch and a half, which doesn't make a very big difference to the angle; about half a sprocket's worth, perhaps...?. ]

I've never had a road bike that I liked to ride where FD trimming was not required, and furthermore I have not had many (and for a long time any) where I couldn't make the FD rub (on both sides, whilst in any sprocket and on the big ring) by simply pushing a bit harder than normal on the pedals whilst seated. Touring frames are built a bit stiffer and I am less likely to pedal that hard, so it is less of a problem on those.

To this day I normally use FDs which were meant for 6s systems even when I'm using 9s or 10s chains; these tend to be wide enough not to rub so easily. And I have no love whatsoever for indexed front shifting on road bikes.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

mikeymo
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Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 9:06pm

Stevek76 wrote:Such a thing as pro gravel racing does actually exist. I can see 1x being beneficial there for a subset of the same reasons it is in MTB. Also if you're doing such a thing I guess you're not to bothered about the wear on the kit you're being given.

mikeymo wrote:So either I'm some sort of bike idiot savant, or extremely lucky, but the warnings about indexed front shifting didn't seem to apply to me.


Depends on chainstay length ime. If you're on a non race bike with longer stays it's not really a problem, never needed the trim positions on my 3x9 (sora front, alivio back). On hyper short race geometries the chain angle becomes more severe and likely to rub.


Mine's a Ridgeback Panorama Deluxe, so a tourer. I haven't got the geometry to hand, but longer chainstays, presumably. I'm also a "spinner" not a "masher" (I believe those are the correct terms), and I don't think I'm strong enough to bend anything much.
Last edited by mikeymo on 4 Jan 2021, 9:13pm, edited 1 time in total.

mikeymo
Posts: 1885
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby mikeymo » 4 Jan 2021, 9:07pm

Brucey wrote:And I have no love whatsoever for indexed front shifting on road bikes.


Really? You surprise me ;-)

Jamesh
Posts: 1670
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Jamesh » 4 Jan 2021, 9:41pm

mikeymo wrote:
Brucey wrote:And I have no love whatsoever for indexed front shifting on road bikes.


Really? You surprise me ;-)


Nor does our bike fidler* like disc brakes either.

Cheers James

*The exact phrase escapes me but I spilt my tea!!!

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Sweep
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Location: London

Re: New Campag 13 speed

Postby Sweep » 5 Jan 2021, 6:26am

mikeymo wrote:
tatanab wrote:However, I agree, I have never seen the sense in indexing a front changer since the position may need to be adjusted according to which sprocket is in use.


I built a bike up. First time I've done that, and first derailleur bike I've ever had.

9 Speed triple, Sora brifters, Sora RD and FD. Spa crankset.

I rode that bike for 2 years, nearly always in the middle ring. Then I found out there was something called "trim" on my shifters.

So for all that time it had worked perfectly, with no chain rub. A while ago I managed to get through every single chainring/sprocket combination including big/big and small/small without any rub.

So either I'm some sort of bike idiot savant, or extremely lucky, but the warnings about indexed front shifting didn't seem to apply to me.

Then I changed the FD for a 105 triple. Because, well, "if it ain't broke keep fixing it till it is". Also the 105 is shiny. I can make it rub, but only if I really try, and even then only in very particular situations.

Indexed front shifting plus very occasional trim works just fine for me.

I have also built up a triple 9 speed with a front trimmable rapidfire and have had no problems.
I have a few trimmable rapidfires laid up.
Won't be going above 9 speed.
Sweep