Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

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531colin
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Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by 531colin »

OK, I accept that the Ergotec Futura seatpost has more layback than any currently available seatpost, but I think they have missed a trick or two.
To move the saddle backwards or forwards, at the top of the straight post is a "pivoting arm" which pivots on the post top; this is the "coarse adjustment" to set the saddle layback (or forward). The saddle rail clamp pivots at the other end of the "pivoting arm". The pivot at the top of the post has teeth and notches, so that it ratchets around in sensible increments; the saddle rail clamp pivot is smooth and therefore continuously adjustable. (good)
I was staggered to find that both these pivots are clamped tight by a single pinch bolt. It follows that you can have both free or both tight, but not one free. (The head of the bolt bears on the saddle rail pivot clamp, the bolt is threaded into the clamp that bears on the seatpost top; it works because these are at opposite ends of a single bit of metal, the pivoting arm...its a long bolt which nips up both clamps. The serrated pivot at at the top of the seatpost needs more clearance than the smooth pivot at the saddle rail clamp (so you can't damage the serrations). As manufactured, this means that as you undo the common pinch bolt, the serrated pivot "lets go" before the smooth rail clamp pivot; you can't just back the pinch bolt off a bit to adjust the saddle angle.
It gets worse....the saddle rail clamp is not a single piece of metal which passes through the pivoting arm, there are left and right side clamps for the individual saddle rails; so in order to adjust the saddle angle you need both the pivoting arm (dual) pinch bolt and the saddle rail clamp pinch bolt to be loose....at which point the whole thing flaps about like a demented puppet with all its strings cut.
I think it would be much more sensible to have separate pinch bolts so that you could set the pivoting arm at your preferred setback and lock off that pivot; then you could work on the saddle tilt and slide the saddle rails through the saddle rail clamp without the whole thing coming loose.
As currently designed, the only adjustment you can make on its own (without everything loose) is to slide the saddle rails backwards and forwards through the rail clamp. It would be much better if saddle angle was also possible to adjust without everything coming loose. If I were to re-design it, I would have separate pinch bolts for the seatpost top pivot and the saddle clamp pivot so that you could lock those adjustments off individually; and I would have a solid saddle rail carrier going through the pivoting arm so you could adjust the saddle tilt and slide the saddle back and forth on its rails independently, with a pinch bolt each.
The manufacturers list saddle setback as 50mm. As usual, this is measured from the seatpost centre to the centre of the saddle rail clamp, but its the front of the clamp which limits saddle setback. The pivoting arm measures 60mm from the clamp at the top of the straight post to the saddle rail clamp (centres). Inexplicably, the clamp at the top of the straight post is offset forwards. Why would you do that? If it was offset backwards the offset would add to the setback rather than subtract from the setback.
My picture shows a Gilles Berthoud saddle mounted. A Brooks saddle won't mount as neatly as that; the shape of the saddle rails means the rails would foul the seatpost top if you tried to use the full layback angle.
The post is slack enough in my Longitude frame that I will have to "take steps" to ensure it doesn't slip down, but my vernier measures it at 27.2mm. I can't think of anything that would be sufficiently exactly manufactured to act as a "reference dimension" to check the vernier?
The saddle rail clamps, pivoting arm and seatpost top all appear to be well-made pressure die castings; the post top is possibly welded to a bit of tube and the weld dressed.
ImageIMG_5353 by 531colin, on Flickr
slowster
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by slowster »

Yup, that was my take too: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=133806#p1422663.

If you bought the Ergotec Futura because a 300mm Planet X Holdsworth/Velo Orange Gran Cru seatpost is not long enough to use with your Longitude, be aware that SJS sell a 350mm JTek branded version, although currently they are out of stock.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts/ ... -x-272-mm/

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts/ ... er-272-mm/
LittleGreyCat
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by LittleGreyCat »

All looks very complex.

I do note that on my saddle clamp if you want to move the saddle backwards and forwards on the rail you need to free it off enough to risk the angle changing.

If you wish to change the angle of the saddle then there is a major risk of the saddle moving backwards and forwards.

I have always wondered why there needs to be a single bolt which frees off everything.
For fine adjustment you could do with a screw (worm drive or whatever) which could move a saddle forwards or backwards by a number of turns.
Equally to move the saddle nose up or down in a controlled manner.

I realise a "one clamp holds all" is cheaper but detailed adjustments can be a pain.
scottg
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by scottg »

The late lamented Salsa Shaft seatpost used an eccentric for angle adjustment.
The second hole in the eccentric is for a hex wrench to rotate it.
3 bolt seatpost, excellent for Brooks users.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283800564120?c ... 1qEALw_wcB
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Deutsche Luftschiffahrts-AG
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Brucey
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by Brucey »

FWIW the 'long bolt' clamping arrangement is very similar to that used on some adjustable stems. Honestly (based on my experience with such stems), I'm not convinced that the whole thing is up to prolonged use holding a saddle, but I'd certainly use such a thing temporarily to get set up properly.

Philosophically there are pros and cons to having multiple adjustments secured by a single bolt; the whole arrangement need not be any weaker with one bolt securing (say) two clamps, but when that one bolt is loose, pretty much everything comes loose. This is probably bad if you are trying to make a tiny adjustment, but it arguably isn't all bad; if the one bolt betrays its looseness by something slipping, but without such slippage causing damage (or risk of an accident), it is simply a question of tightening that bolt again. [Also long bolt is less likely to loosen in the first place, because there is more stretch in it (just like there is in long spokes vs short spokes). ]

So an example of this is the 'hockey stick' seat pin design; everything comes loose at once, if it slips it won't knacker itself and there is only one bolt to worry about. I don't mind that, and it is a pretty good design (for a one-bolt seat pin, that is).

If I was charged with designing that seat pin, I'd probably arrange the main knuckle (in line with the seat pin) to be serrated and the other one not. This way the latter would be expected to slip first (despite lower service loads) in the event of a loose bolt, and the (probably necessary for strength) serrated clamp wouldn't be so likely to damage itself.

A suggestion; could you add a couple of strategically placed grub screws (or sprung ball detents perhaps) to keep one or more of the adjustments in place when the long bolt is loosened?

just a thought anyway

(ps. the black finish won't be helping; IME the coefficient of friction will be lower than with plain (non anodised) aluminium and the seat pin may be made slightly undersized (more than normal) so it goes in the frame easily even if the coating is still present and slightly thicker than it should be. If you want to check your verniers then a good cartridge bearing shouldn't be more than a few microns 'off' so may be as good as anything for checking them, near (but not precisely at) that particular size. )

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Valbrona
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by Valbrona »

Design aside, I am failing to see the logic of such a part.

You get saddle setback from a combination of the seatpost and the saddle rails. If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?
I should coco.
pwa
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by pwa »

Valbrona wrote:Design aside, I am failing to see the logic of such a part.

You get saddle setback from a combination of the seatpost and the saddle rails. If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?

Either that, or the seat tube is too steep.
amediasatex
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by amediasatex »

Valbrona wrote:If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?


Not an issue of size but of seat-tube angle.

While it's true that small sizes often have steeper angles it's not universal or causal. Small frames can have slack seat angles just as easily as big ones can have steep angles, it's entirely a matter of design rather than simply size.

I'm cursed with short legs, but a preference/requirement for a lot of setback, couple that with a desire to use traditional leather saddles and you have a recipe for frustration and greatly limited product choices.
Vorpal
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by Vorpal »

I have one of those, and I really like it for the ability to get a correct position on my bike, and the comfort.

But I agree entirely about the adjustment design, and found it a bit frustrating to get the right position. I have not had any problems with slipping, or anything coming loose.

Valbrona wrote:Design aside, I am failing to see the logic of such a part.

You get saddle setback from a combination of the seatpost and the saddle rails. If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?

I think that many recent bike designs have pretty steep seat tube angles, and while correct adjustment is within design parameters for an average body, one doesn't need to differ very much from average to need a layback seat pin.

I have relatively long legs and short body, and I find it difficult on many correctly sized conventional bicycles to get the saddle far back enough. If the seat tube is steep, it's even worse. If I go up to a size where that is not a difficulty, the handlebars are too far away for me, and in many cases, too far away for reasonable changes to put them in the correct position.

p.s. I see others have posted whilst I was writing 8)
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Vorpal
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by Vorpal »

531colin wrote:The post is slack enough in my Longitude frame that I will have to "take steps" to ensure it doesn't slip down, but my vernier measures it at 27.2mm. I can't think of anything that would be sufficiently exactly manufactured to act as a "reference dimension" to check the vernier?

Just to address this specific question...They make something called gauge blocks to act as a reference dimension for measuring tools. You can buy a set, though they are a bit dear. Otherwise, if you take your vernier to a tool shop or specialist, or a company that does calibration, they can check it for you.
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pwa
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by pwa »

I wonder if adjusting this seatpost is one of those fiddly little jobs where a big lump of blu tack comes in handy, by pressing it onto two elements that you want to keep fixed in relation to each other whilst other elements are freed for adjustment.
alexnharvey
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by alexnharvey »

Valbrona wrote:Design aside, I am failing to see the logic of such a part.

You get saddle setback from a combination of the seatpost and the saddle rails. If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?


As a fellow fan of logic, I think you are either begging the question and/or circularly reasoning.

Cyclists have used setback and set-forward seatposts for 100 years or more, over which time average seat tube angle has varied considerably. In the past when seat tube angles tended to be slacker on average and with fewer frame sizes produced too, forward extending 'L-shaped' seatposts with a sliding clamp were not unusual and allowed a much greater forward extension than the Futura. It was also common to see the clamp set ahead of the post/tube line and for the saddle to also be set well forward on rails.

https://steel-vintage.com/nsu-chrom-200901
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531colin
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by 531colin »

slowster wrote:Yup, that was my take too: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=133806#p1422663.

If you bought the Ergotec Futura because a 300mm Planet X Holdsworth/Velo Orange Gran Cru seatpost is not long enough to use with your Longitude, be aware that SJS sell a 350mm JTek branded version, although currently they are out of stock.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts/ ... -x-272-mm/

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/seat-posts/ ... er-272-mm/


Thats a bit of a worry....I have no recollection at all of either of those threads! :(
I tried the original Velo Orange seatpost (with the Campag. pattern 2 bolts in line) and it didn't get near enough setback....so much for buying a frame "by the numbers"...Genesis quote 71 degree seat tube angle, and that post works on my 72.5 deg Spa!
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531colin
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by 531colin »

Valbrona wrote:Design aside, I am failing to see the logic of such a part.

You get saddle setback from a combination of the seatpost and the saddle rails. If from those two things you can't get enough, well then the frame is probably way too small. No?


Well no. Frame size of itself doesn't alter saddle setback.....because the seat tube and seatpost are in a straight line, it doesn't matter if extra height is gained by a bit of seat tube or a bit more seatpost showing.
(of course, seat tube angle may alter with frame size, but thats not a given)
I got into this mess because I bought a frame where the seat tube angle is given as 71 deg. However, there is a bend in the tube to give more clearance for the rear tyre (a very big tyre). So I suspect the top of the seat tube may well be at 71 deg, but its in front of where a straight 71 deg tube would be.
slowster
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Re: Ergotec Futura seatpost. Missed opportunities.

Post by slowster »

Regarding the seat post slipping, I did not find the Futura to be worse than the other two anodised seat posts I tried in my MTB (Ritchey Comp and Jtek). What I found was that all were prone to slipping in the frame (not a Genesis BTW), and the solution in my case was to buy a Surly Constrictor seat clamp, which allows more clamping force. Since then I've noticed it in photographs of quite a few people's different bikes on the internet, which suggests to me that this problem is more common with mass produced welded frames than generally recognised (presumably exacerbated by the modern trend for black anodised posts, given Brucey's comments above). However a) I suspect you would need the 30mm size and no one has them in stock, and b) from your comments I suspect that the fit might be too loose for even one of those to make the difference (my posts were typically slipping only slightly by 2mm or so over the course of a ride).

If the Surly Constrictor seat clamp had not worked for me I had intended to investigate getting one of those seat clamps which have a separate clamp around the post itself, although I cannot recall if I found one with the right internal diameter sizes for both the frame and the seat post. KCNC make them in various sizes, including one sized for a 27.2mm post and 30.7mm for the seat tube. When I was looking I found a couple of other designs/brands, including one sold by Rose Bikes, but that one is no longer on their website as far as I can see.

https://clee-cycles.co.uk/P3103/product
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