Shimano 10sp Cassette widths

[Mick F]

Sussed it.
False alarm on the lugs.

It's the 11t outer with the lugs.
The 12t outer doesn't have them.
The only Campag ones I've looked at were 12t outers.

Therefore, there's not enough meat on the metal NOT to have the lugs, as the teeth are very close to the splines. The lugs are there for strength.

If I buy the 12-30, the outer 12t won't have the lugs.

[Brucey]

I was going to say, isn't an overhang unavoidable with 11T..?

Mind you, 12T shimano sprockets have an overhang too, if they are to be fitted in the last position, and of course they don't if they are in the second to last position.

cheers

[Mick F]

Not unavoidable, but it would make the ring too delicate I think.

Here's two photos from the rear.
One, the 11t and the other the 12t.
You can see the 11t lugs and that the 12t doesn't have them.
The 12t is an outer too - as used on 12t up cassettes - as it as serrations to lock into the lockring serrations.

[Brucey]

I have always supposed that there might be little or no 'land' for the lockring to bear against, if an 11T sprocket didn't have an overhang; certainly it wouldn't be as large an area as normal. As you say there isn't much thickness left over the splines in the spacer adjacent to an 11T sprocket, they are pretty flimsy-looking. The 11T sprocket is very clearly something of an afterthought, and would be quite impossible were it not for bushingless chains, which are smaller (less tall) than fully bushed ones.

cheers

[Mick F]

11t sprockets are an abomination, and as for 10t ones ......... words fail me!

Since using the two 105 11-28, I've worn out the 11t ......................... let me count.
The original, then the one from the original Tiagra 11-25, then I bought three from Bike24, and I have one left.
I'm on my second 105 11-28 as from April 2020 and it's not going to be long until I use the last of my 11t.

Bike Discount were a good source for individual sprockets.
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shi ... 31?lang=en
Since Brexit, the minimum order is too much, so my source has now dried up.
R2 on this forum has some 11t sprockets I can have, but these are from 9sp, so probably different.

Any road up, I've bitten the bullet and bought the Ultegra 10sp 12-30 from Spa.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s150p85 ... ra-CS-6700
Good value, and on offer too.

You can stick the silly 11t cogs down the loo ............ or anywhere else you can stuff 'em!

[philvantwo]

Well after all that................
let's hope it fits!!!

[Brucey]

IIRC there is precious little difference between 105 and ultegra 10s cassettes, so the fit ought to be about the same.

cheers

[Mick F]

Yes, that's my bet, Brucey.

The interesting bit about this issue (to me at least) is that cassettes have differing widths.
One of my 105's has squashed.

I still have the the one on Moulton, so as of this morning, I won't be riding Moulton until the new cassette from Spa is on. Meanwhile, I'll remove it and see how it fits on the Miche hub.

My bet is that it'll need TWO spacers behind to pack it out like the other one. If I'm wrong, and it fits ok, I'll be completely mystified. The only reason, will be some of the plastic spacers shrink, and some don't .......... which would seem a little odd to say the least.

I'll be out in the workshop this morning. The place needs a good sorting out and tidying, and during the process, I'll check out the two 105 cassettes.

[Brucey]

Not unavoidable, but it would make the ring too delicate I think.

FWIW your photo doesn't show the valley alongside the 11T sprocket teeth; this is about 35.5mm dia, which is about 1.5mm smaller than the end of the integral spacer where it bears against the next sprocket. The major diameter of the spline is 35.0mm, so the wall thickness of a sprocket with no overhang would be about 0.25mm in places. That makes the overhang inevitable in my book.

When the HG spline was first introduced (as 7s) the splines ran the full length of the body and an 11T sprocket wasn't possible. After a year or two the body was changed to what was called 'HG-C' specification, which has a relief (to the splines) at the end of the freehub body, specifically to allow an 11T sprocket (with an overhang) to be fitted. All subsequent HG freehub bodies (up to and including 11s) have the same relief on the end of the body, but the -C suffix has not been used since the first 7s versions.

cheers

[Mick F]

Interesting stuff Brucey.
Yes, I would agree with your "inevitable" with regards to design. It would be possible to file/grind off the lugs, but the sprocket would be rather delicate.

Just come in for a cuppa, and can now report that the 105 cassette is now off Moulton and tried on the Miche hub.
Rattly and loose as expected.

This 105 cassette was fitted April 2020 and has covered only 834miles.
Previous one fitted March 2016 and covered 7,437miles and was originally fitted on the Miche hub and transferred to the SA3sp at 2095miles. In those miles on the Miche, I never noticed the looseness ........ not saying it wasn't there though. Perhaps I wasn't looking or even thought about differences in cassette thickness ......... and why would I?

It goes all goes on, the lockring is tightened, and then off you go. Never given a thought about it until now. There must be thousands of bikes out there with loose cassette sprockets because they have an 11t outer.

[Mick F]

PS:
I see Campag don't have the issue. Looks like their 11t sprockets will slide all along the freewheel body.
This is a new Zonda.

[Mick F]

Having sorted and tidied the workshop, and also taken off the 105 cassette off the SA3sp ready for the new Ultegra 12-30, I've been looking at the bits and putting them in plazzy bags as complete sets.

By looking at all the bits, I see I have THREE spacers with the THREE cassettes, but one of them shouldn't have one!

The spacers come with the 105 cassettes (item 13) but NOT with the Tiagra.

So where's the third spacer come from? It had to have come from the Tiagra ............ but they aren't required!

Did a bit of on-line searching, and it's the Miche hub that it came with, and I must have left it on there when I fitted the 105 to it back in 2016.

Read this:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/m ... 0b85&_ss=r

The 11 speed shimano freehub body comes with two thin spacers to allow the fitting of a 8/9/10 speed cassette. With a 10 speed cassette you will also need to use the 1.0mm spacer that comes with your cassette.

My cassettes haven't shrunk at all. The 105 on the Miche hub requires two spacers and the Tiagra only one.

A day is not complete, until you learn something.

[Brucey]

as I mentioned previously if the Miche hub is 11s, you should have at least one spacer when any 10s cassette is fitted.

cheers

[Mick F]

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mic ... prod164267
https://www.totalcycling.com/en/Miche-R ... 18266.aspx

No mention of any spacer requirement, and no mention of them being 11sp compatible.
I have one on Mercian with 10sp Campag with no spacer at all. If they will fit 11sp Campag, I have no idea.

[Brucey]

different rules for campag; same freewheel body for 10s and 11s, no spacers.

Racing box hubs are listed as shimano 11s compatible eg

https://www.cyclesolutions.co.uk/7161/products/miche-racing-box-hubs.aspx

cheers