shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

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Sweep
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shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Sweep » 19 Jan 2021, 5:27pm

I have been using a shimano 440 rapidfire shifter for years troublefree.
Very recently the cable has somehow jammed in it.
I kind of think there's a good chance that I could fix it if only I could get inside it and it is well made with small screws holding the cover on.
I have extracted one screw and it looks like a quality item.
But I can't get the other two out - my pozidrive /philips or whatever screwdrivers are slipping.
Are these screws by any chance likely to be something that I gather are called JIS screws?
Which maybe need special screwdrivers?
Sweep

slowster
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby slowster » 19 Jan 2021, 5:40pm

I've just tried two screwdrivers in the uppermost screw closest to the barrel adjuster on my 9 speed Rapidfire shifters. My JIS screwdriver is a perfect fit, whereas there is some slop when I try a similarly sized pozidrive screwdriver (although I think I might be able to get away with using it).

JIS screwdrivers obviously come in various sizes - I've got this one, which I also use on derailleur limit screws:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hozan-D-332-10 ... 51&sr=8-13
Last edited by slowster on 19 Jan 2021, 5:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jdsk
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jan 2021, 5:42pm

If Shimano instructions say "#2 Screwdriver" etc does that always/ usually mean JIS?

Thanks

Jonathan

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Sweep
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Sweep » 19 Jan 2021, 5:53pm

slowster wrote:I've just tried two screwdrivers in the uppermost screw closest to the barrel adjuster on my 9 speed Rapidfire shifters. My JIS screwdriver is a perfect fit, whereas there is some slop when I try a similarly sized pozidrive screwdriver (although I think I might be able to get away with using it).

JIS screwdrivers obviously come in various sizes - I've got this one, which I also use on derailleur limit screws:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hozan-D-332-10 ... 51&sr=8-13


Many thanks for that slowster - very kind of you to check - your link though seems to be to something that doesn't seem to mention JIS.

I was thinking of something like this set:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/US-PRO-TOOLS ... SwL1BfZ3J0

though i may well only ever use one.

I have already wrecked this unit and won't be able to get the other two screws out but would like to sort this before I touch anything else.

I plan to go no higher than 9 speed and want to build up spares, so intend to extract the screws on any spare units, grease the threads and replace, confident that I can get into them in future for servicing.

The irony is that these shifters (Tiagra?) are clearly way better made than some cheapo 7 speed ones I used to regularly service/revive. They are so well made though that I can't get into them and don't want to wreck any others.
Sweep

Brucey
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Brucey » 19 Jan 2021, 5:57pm

Jdsk wrote:If Shimano instructions say "#2 Screwdriver" etc does that always/ usually mean JIS?


yes.
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby mjr » 19 Jan 2021, 5:59pm

Also, if it is a JIS screw, the head normally has a small dot stamped in between two arms of the + I think, but that may be difficult to see if scuffed much.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Brucey
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Brucey » 19 Jan 2021, 6:01pm

Sweep wrote:But I can't get the other two out - my pozidrive /philips or whatever screwdrivers are slipping.
Are these screws by any chance likely to be something that I gather are called JIS screws?
Which maybe need special screwdrivers?


IIRC you need a JIS #1 pt screwdriver on the small screws on flat bar STI covers. A phillips #1 pt is close-ish and a Pozi #1 pt will be a very poor match indeed.

However if you have already ' had a go' with something that has slipped, the screws won't be JIS #1 pt shape any more, and bolting the stable door after the horse has gone won't do you much good.

cheers
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Jdsk
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Jdsk » 19 Jan 2021, 6:02pm

Brucey wrote:
Jdsk wrote:If Shimano instructions say "#2 Screwdriver" etc does that always/ usually mean JIS?

yes.

Thank you

Jonathan

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Sweep
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Sweep » 19 Jan 2021, 6:11pm

Brucey wrote:
Sweep wrote:But I can't get the other two out - my pozidrive /philips or whatever screwdrivers are slipping.
Are these screws by any chance likely to be something that I gather are called JIS screws?
Which maybe need special screwdrivers?


IIRC you need a JIS #1 pt screwdriver on the small screws on flat bar STI covers. A phillips #1 pt is close-ish and a Pozi #1 pt will be a very poor match indeed.

However if you have already ' had a go' with something that has slipped, the screws won't be JIS #1 pt shape any more, and bolting the stable door after the horse has gone won't do you much good.

cheers

thanks brucey.
yes i have truly, er, screwed the screws on this unit.
I suppose I will have to be philosophical and write it off - it was 20 years old (tho working perfectly until recently)
At least with all the nice very quick help of you folks I can avoid the same problem again and keep all my others going.
Sweep

slowster
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby slowster » 19 Jan 2021, 6:14pm

Sweep wrote:your link though seems to be to something that doesn't seem to mention JIS.

It's the exact same one I bought (there is even a banner on the Amazon page advising "You last purchased this item on..."), and if you read the reviews it's clear it is JIS.

NB the page also shows 'similar items' including an identical looking screwdriver branded 'Vessel' costing £8.54 instead of £11.74 for the Hozan. Hozan is a bike brand like Park Tool, and like Park Tool I expect that they sell a lot of rebadged generic tools made for them by other manufacturers and charge a premium. Therefore it might well be that the Hozan screwdriver is simply a rebranded Vessel screwdriver - certainly the distinctive moulding of the handle looks identical. However, I cannot tell for certain that they are the same size, although the English language review of the Vessel suggests it is, since it mentions bike use, and the JIS screws I've encountered always required that size screwdriver (so I would be disinclined to buy a full set of JIS screwdrivers, especially if as I suspect the quality of the set is inferior to the quality of the single Hozan/Vessel screwdriver).

Edit - I think they are shipped from Japan, but I think that either they are below the levels at which customs/import duties apply and/or Amazon take care of that upfront anyway.
Last edited by slowster on 19 Jan 2021, 6:25pm, edited 2 times in total.

Brucey
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Brucey » 19 Jan 2021, 6:17pm

if you drill the heads off the old screws you may be able to get inside the units and the screw stubs may come out OK.

The other option of course is to use spray lube liberally without taking the shifters apart. If they are sticky inside they will often come back to life, if you use enough lube.

cheers
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Sweep
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Sweep » 19 Jan 2021, 6:24pm

Brucey wrote:if you drill the heads off the old screws you may be able to get inside the units and the screw stubs may come out OK.

The other option of course is to use spray lube liberally without taking the shifters apart. If they are sticky inside they will often come back to life, if you use enough lube.

cheers

thanks brucey - have already tried to dremel a slot in one of the screw heads but think I've screwed that up as well :(
I think I'll have to give up on them - ironically I think part of my problem is that these things are so well made - there is quite a shaft on the screws.
Yes I have revived apparently seized rapidfires in the past by flushing with GT85 but there is some sort of cable jam in these (not sure how that happened) which is terminal if I can't open them up.
As I said I will be philosophical about it - won't make the same mistake again.
Sweep

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Sweep
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Sweep » 19 Jan 2021, 6:28pm

slowster wrote:
Sweep wrote:your link though seems to be to something that doesn't seem to mention JIS.

It's the exact same one I bought (there is even a banner on the Amazon page advising "You last purchased this item on..."), and if you read the reviews it's clear it is JIS.

NB the page also shows 'similar items' including an identical looking screwdriver branded 'Vessel' costing £8.54 instead of £11.74 for the Hozan. Hozan is a bike brand like Park Tool, and like Park Tool I expect that they sell a lot of rebadged generic tools made for them by other manufacturers and charge a premium. Therefore it might well be that the Hozan screwdriver is simply a rebranded Vessel screwdriver - certainly the distinctive moulding of the handle looks identical. However, I cannot tell for certain that they are the same size, although the English language review of the Vessel suggests it is, since it mentions bike use, and the JIS screws I've encountered always required that size screwdriver (so I would be disinclined to buy a full set of JIS screwdrivers, especially if as I suspect the quality of the set is inferior to the quality of the single Hozan/Vessel screwdriver).

Edit - I think they are shipped from Japan, but I think that either they are below the levels at which customs/import duties apply and/or Amazon take care of that upfront anyway.

Many thanks slowster.
I assume as per brucey's post that one of yours is a #1 / number 1?
Sweep

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531colin
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby 531colin » 19 Jan 2021, 6:30pm

If you are going to drill the heads off the screws, get yourself some left hand drill bits (yes, really....I know it sounds like a joke)
Once they "bite" they are fairly likely to undo the screw. (Used counter-clockwise in a battery drill driver with high pressure on the bit

Brucey
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Re: shimano rapidfires = JIS screws?

Postby Brucey » 19 Jan 2021, 6:41pm

FWIW depending on the STI and the cover screws you are dealing with they can be #1 or #2 point, or a mixture. #2 pt JIS screws are meant to have a dimple but not all shimano screws do.

Image

cheers
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