How oh how do you get a lockring off?

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Brucey
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Brucey » 21 Jan 2021, 5:36pm

alexnharvey wrote:...I do find chain whips a bloody PITA. Why don't they have a hook or something that would secure the loose end and stop it slipping off.


some do.

Image

It isn't difficult to add such a thing if you want one.

IME the two big problems with chain whips are that

1) the loads are rarely confined to a single plane (i.e. the thing almost always manages to twist slightly) and
2) the load on the chain is about twice as much as it could be.

A 'double-handled chainwhip' could exert twice the torque for any given peak chain tension, and if it was designed right, it wouldn't twist out of plane either. Manufacturing such a thing is on my 'to do' list.

FWIW if the lockring is tight, it may be possible to jar it by giving it a few well-aimed hammer blows in the axial direction. If you really can't shift it, you can cut one of the plastic sprocket spacers in situ, ease the pressure and release it that way.

cheers
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pwa
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby pwa » 21 Jan 2021, 5:43pm

I don't know if anyone has suggested it, but I try to arrange the whip and the lock ring tool (or tool+spanner if that is being used) so that the two handles being pressed are fairly close to each other and will get closer again as I press to loosen the ring. It is easier to use your muscles effectively this way. Have your fingers out of the way and just use your palms. I must say that I have never had a lock ring seriously stuck, though I do put a bit of grease on the threads when I install them.

doffcocker
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby doffcocker » 21 Jan 2021, 6:06pm

alexnharvey wrote:That doesn't sound such good quality if they are breaking. Do you have an old chain and a chaintool?


I don't unfortunately.
At this stage I don't mind paying £16 for a standard Halfords chain whip if it's gonna be a decent improvement on the ones I've managed to break.

I know it's turning into a dear do, but now that I've started it I won't be happy until I've sussed it.

I'd rather do it the correct way if possible but I'm not opposed to breaking it off some way if it comes to that, as I play to chuck it out anyway.

Brucey
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Brucey » 21 Jan 2021, 6:33pm

destructive methods include grinding the lockring top off. Once the pressure is gone the remains of the lockring should unscrew without too much difficulty. However where the grinding dust ends up is of concern; if it gets in the bearings it won't do them any good whatsoever.

cheers
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gregoryoftours
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby gregoryoftours » 21 Jan 2021, 6:45pm

Oh dear, I feel like I shouldn't have directed you to those cheapo tools now! The lockring tool is very unlikely to cam out with the locating peg, but yes when a lockring is really tight even good chainwhips tend to twist and bend a bit. I would have thought that this was especially likely if you use the 2 levers close together and try to squeeze them.

To be honest it does just sound like it's been over torqued during installation. What I'd do is save the rest of your tools, just drop in to a bike shop (most are open as essential services), with a good tubular section park tool chainwhip they'll have it off in a few seconds. It will cost you a couple of quid and you can make sure when you fit the new cassette you tighten it a reasonable amount. Thereafter you shouldn't have any problem removing it in the future with your cheaper tools. It sounds like you're quite likely to damage more expensive tools even, unless you want to shell out £40 odd quid for a workshop quality tubular handled tool.

Brucey
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Brucey » 21 Jan 2021, 7:07pm

FWIW if you have broken cheap chain whips it is usually possible to repair them provided you have a length of suitable chain. 'Suitable chain' in this context is usually 1/8" chain, because it can be joined using a chain tool. IME reducing the out of plane loads on the chain helps avoid such breakages.

[edit; NB you can use a few links of 1/8" chain to join to the tool, then a length of narrower chain where it engages with the sprocket, if necessary.

Note that there is nothing much stopping you from using more than one chain whip to turn the sprockets (forwards of course, which is ACW when viewed from above) if you have the remover tool in a bench vice.

In an emergency you can use many small pieces of wood (eg pencils) jammed through the spokes and sprockets, thus locking the cassette to the wheel. This means you can unscrew the lockring without a chain whip tool. However if higher than normal torque is required this may not work at all, and/or risk damage to the spokes etc too, so if you try this, go easy.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 22 Jan 2021, 9:35am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Mick F » 22 Jan 2021, 9:05am

I made my own chainwhips years ago.
Plate steel and I used to put one in the bench vice and fit the Suntour freewheel into it having already taken it off the wheel.
I had the other one in the other direction and would use a hammer on it to undo the VERY TIGHT screw-on sprockets to replace one or two due to wear or for a ratio change.

Believe me, these were TIGHT and chainwhips did it, illustrating the fact that chainwhips are strong and won't slip.

Therefore, if your lockring is too tight for you, you need longer tools and the help of some sort of anchor.
Maybe mount the lockring tool in a bench vice and your wheel on top and your chainwhip anchored so it won't let the cassette turn, and then turn your wheel anticlockwise.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Mick F » 22 Jan 2021, 9:09am

I'll photo my chainwhips later this morning. Easy made, and mine still have the Suntour 6sp chain on them from the early 1980s. Does 10sp easily.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Mick F
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Mick F » 22 Jan 2021, 9:53am

Mick F wrote:I'll photo my chainwhips later this morning. Easy made, and mine still have the Suntour 6sp chain on them from the early 1980s. Does 10sp easily.
Chainwhips.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall

Pebble
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Pebble » 22 Jan 2021, 10:06am

I made my own so as I could tackle the most stubborn

Notice how it holds the lockring socket in place as well as keeping good alignment between whip and cassette.

Here it is in action releasing a stupidly over tightened one.


Brucey
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Brucey » 22 Jan 2021, 10:12am

FWIW my (DIY) chain whips are nearly two feet long, and they need to be for some jobs. However undoing cassette lockrings isn't usually one of them; having a long chain whip just makes it a bit easier, and a shorter one would normally be perfectly adequate.

Remember I mentioned above that some axial percussion might help to loosen an obstinate lockring? With freewheels that need disassembly the exact same thing applies; having broken sprockets in the past (with 'single-action' chain whips, hence interest in 'double action' ones) I have taken to axial percussion on obstinate threaded sprockets and freewheel sprocket lockrings too. Particularly if there are plastic spacers in the stack, the axial percussion makes the difference between breaking teeth off sprockets that simply won't unscrew and them waving the white flag instead.

One of the problems with standard chain whips is that (unlike the trailing (tension) chain) the short fixed length of chain often doesn't load more than two teeth on the sprocket; it is these which tend to get broken.

cheers
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pwa
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby pwa » 22 Jan 2021, 10:13am

I wonder if some people are putting lockrings on a bit too tight in the first place. Mine are always done up tight, but only to a point where I could get them even tighter if I wanted to. I deliberately avoid that extra bit of oomph. And I make sure there is grease on the threads. When I undo the lockrings they are always still as tight as when they went on, so they are not undoing in use, but it only takes moderate muscle to get them off. They are off within a minute of me having the skewer out. Always.

Brucey
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Brucey » 22 Jan 2021, 10:18am

Pebble wrote:I made my own so as I could tackle the most stubborn...


nice, but does it not tend to twist under the highest loads? Also doesn't there have to be a large lateral reaction load on the QR skewer ?

cheers
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Mick F
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Mick F » 22 Jan 2021, 10:26am

Pebble wrote:I made my own so as I could tackle the most stubborn
Notice how it holds the lockring socket in place as well as keeping good alignment between whip and cassette.
Here it is in action releasing a stupidly over tightened one.
Superb! :D

pwa wrote:I wonder if some people are putting lockrings on a bit too tight in the first place. Mine are always done up tight, but only to a point where I could get them even tighter if I wanted to. I deliberately avoid that extra bit of oomph. And I make sure there is grease on the threads. When I undo the lockrings they are always still as tight as when they went on, so they are not undoing in use, but it only takes moderate muscle to get them off. They are off within a minute of me having the skewer out. Always.
Spot on.

I once set my torque wrench to what Mr Campag says is the correct torque, and it was stupidly tight, so I ignore it.
Tighten it so it's tight but not too tight. Mr Campag's figure is too tight. Not measured what I do it to, but probably half.
Screen Shot 2021-01-22 at 10.24.59.png
36ftlbs is cylinder head bolt tight! :shock:
Mick F. Cornwall

Pebble
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Re: How oh how do you get a lockring off?

Postby Pebble » 22 Jan 2021, 10:32am

Brucey wrote:
Pebble wrote:I made my own so as I could tackle the most stubborn...


nice, but does it not tend to twist under the highest loads? Also doesn't there have to be a large lateral reaction load on the QR skewer ?

cheers

Does not appear to be any twisting, just feels very secure and unlikely to slip.

By lateral load do you mean stretching the skewr ? I think if you didn't release the skewer after the first quarter turn then you could soon do some damage to the bearing on the other side.