How oh how do you get a lockring off?

[Mick F]

I'm considering making a lightweight smaller chainwhip.
The ones I made all those decades ago for freewheel assemblies were tough and strong and designed specifically to fit in a bench vice and strong enough to stand being hit with a hammer.

As I've already said, and others too, that lockrings don't need to be on TIGHT, but tight enough.
I fancy making a chainwhip using modern 10sp chain mounted on an alu bar. Doesn't need to be any longer than 6 or 8" perhaps.
I'm going to see what I have kicking about in the workshop.

[Mick F]

This one looks good value ................... not!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Deluxe-Freew ... SwuhFaOVJt

[KTHSullivan]

At £500 quid a pop, it should be top swag!

[freiston]

Going on from the Pedro chain vise whip, has anyone tried or have any opinion of the Decathlon chain whip (it's not really a chain whip but designed for the same purpose)?

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/chain-whi ... /_/R-p-200

[KTHSullivan]

Going on from the Pedro chain vise whip, has anyone tried or have any opinion of the Decathlon chain whip (it's not really a chain whip but designed for the same purpose)?

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/chain-whi ... /_/R-p-200

Proof of the pudding, and al that but I can see lots of skinned knuckles with that one.

[531colin]

....... I think that the wear arises from small radial movements of the sprocket under load, and that if the clamping force is enough to suppress that most of the time, it is 'job done'. ....
.......... I would probably have designed the spline with sloping faces rather than radial faces; this would tend to keep each sprocket centralised even under load ..

Both fair points, well made.

.....BTW it isn't necessary to undo the lockring on tour, if you use shimano hubs; provided you have cone spanners the axle can be withdrawn and the freehub body removed (with the cassette still attached). This way you can have your lockring properly tight and not have to worry about getting it undone......

I own both the "NBT" tool TC refers to and its predecessor the Pamir hypercracker (I think thats right....been a long time).
Carried both on various tours, used neither.
(for those not familiar with the theory, these work by fixing the cassette lockring as you pedal to turn the cassette....the tool engages with the lockring spline and a tab seats against the dropout to stop the thing turning.)

[531colin]

What does the team think?

What immediately struck me when I looked at your photographs was not the positioning of the tools, but the length of the handles. Your Bahco adjustable spanner is 15"/380mm (and googling reveals they also make an 18" / 450mm), and even without the scaffold pole extension your chain whip appears to be a similar length or longer. I too have a Bahco adjustable spanner, but it is only 10" / 257mm, and my chain whips are similarly shorter at ~12" /300mm.

I reckon that the leverage provided by longer tools like yours makes the task much easier, and possibly safer/less likely to damage the parts because it is easier to control the amount of force used.

On that note, others have mentioned upthread positioning the two handles close to one another, so that they can be squeezed together. I don't believe that technique allows more force to be applied than having them at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. If I have them in the latter position with me kneeling over the wheel and the top of the wheel resting against my chest, I can probably potentially apply something approaching a large percentage of half my bodyweight to each handle. There is no way I could apply anywhere near that force using the other set-up and squeezing the handles together with both hands.

However, the handles close together method squeezed with both hands probably allows greater control, e,g, no risk of sudden slippage as the lock ring starts to come undone, and I suspect that the extra leverage of very long handled tools like yours makes that technique practical when it might not work with shorter handled tools.....

I agree; a long lever means you can get up a lot of torque and still be much more in control than if you try to get the same torque by using maximal force on a short lever. Those are tools I bought when I had a bike shop; its also much safer using decent quality tools, the jaws of that BAHCO spanner are still perfectly smooth and parallel, and they don't slip off the work like a cheap adjustable spanner.

The extra bit of tube on the chainwhip isn't there for leverage, its there so that I don't have to hold the chainwhip, its resting on the ground, and the ground will react the downward force I put on the spanner.

I use the "grip the handles together" technique for things like the final locking-off for cone adjustment. (Before my hands became arthritic, and when bathroom scales were mechanical, I could squeeze bathroom scales and get a higher number than my bodyweight, so its a way you can exert a fair bit of force.....again, well-controlled.)

[Mick F]

I've tried the "pencils through the spokes into the back of the cassette" trick before. There's a thread on here about it.
Works fine as far as I'm concerned. No use for a stuck lockring or one over-tightened though.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=41597

[slowster]

Before my hands became arthritic, and when bathroom scales were mechanical, I could squeeze bathroom scales and get a higher number than my bodyweight, so its a way you can exert a fair bit of force.....again, well-controlled.

Hmmm. If you are gripping and squeezing the scales together at the edge, and the strain guage, spring or whatever that provides the resistance is close to the centre of the scales, then I suspect that the upper surface of the scales may be acting as a lever and multiplying your hand strength.

The muscles in the hands are so much smaller than those in the shoulder and upper arms, that it seems to me that they must exert significantly less force.

Anyway, you're not normal . Arthritis or no arthritis, I expect that stress relieving thousands of wheels over many years has resulted in you having much greater hand strength than most people. I once shook hands with a small woman who had a small upholstery business and must have been over 70. It felt like I was shaking hands with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I've made a mental note never to shake your hand in the unlikely event that we ever meet.

[freiston]

Going on from the Pedro chain vise whip, has anyone tried or have any opinion of the Decathlon chain whip (it's not really a chain whip but designed for the same purpose)?

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/chain-whi ... /_/R-p-200

linked picture

Proof of the pudding, and al that but I can see lots of skinned knuckles with that one.

More so than a traditional chain whip? I've just realised that Brucey mentioned this Decathlon tool in his response to the Pedro chain vise whip - sorry for missing that Brucey!

[Brucey]

...Proof of the pudding, and al that but I can see lots of skinned knuckles with that one.

Not as much as you might expect; the pins are headed, so the tool cannot slip off easily



FWIW I have used a tool of this type (in someone else's workshop) on an incredibly tight lockring; this lockring had been tightened instead of loosened for some reason (not as uncommon as you might hope...) and I reckon it needed somewhere north of 100ftlbs to shift it.

I was able to clamp the decathlon tool in the bench vice, then use a socket + breaker bar on the remover (they just fitted inside the vice throat). It was slightly confusing to work this way, because the breaker bar needed to be turned CW as viewed from above, (which seemed all wrong if you are used to holding the remover in the bench vice and turning the chain whip ACW).

An issue for those who might use a big spanner on the remover tool is that there are pins on both sides of the decathlon tool and the ones on the unused side will foul on the spanner unless it is set ~6-8mm further out than normal.

So to my surprise the Decathlon tool is stronger than it looks and could probably use a longer handle before the working end of the tool would start to break stuff. However it only fits four sprocket sizes; 11,12,13,14T. Plenty enough for me, but in this brave new world of 10T sprockets maybe this won't be enough for some folk.

If all I used a chain whip for was cassette removal, I would certainly prefer this tool over an indifferently-made chain whip. As it is, I use chain whips for fixed gear sprockets and working on freewheels too, so I am pretty well stuck with them.

cheers

[Paulatic]

.

On that note, others have mentioned upthread positioning the two handles close to one another, so that they can be squeezed together. I don't believe that technique allows more force to be applied than having them at 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. If I have them in the latter position with me kneeling over the wheel and the top of the wheel resting against my chest, I can probably potentially apply something approaching a large percentage of half my bodyweight to each handle. There is no way I could apply anywhere near that force using the other set-up and squeezing the handles together with both hands.

However, the handles close together method squeezed with both hands probably allows greater control, e,g, no risk of sudden slippage as the lock ring starts to come undone, and I suspect that the extra leverage of very long handled tools like yours makes that technique practical when it might not work with shorter handled tools.

This study suggests

55- and 50-mm grip spans were rated as the most comfortable sizes and showed the largest grip strength (433.6 N and 430.8 N

With one hand that’s over four times my body weight. I don’t know if two hands doubles it but it can’t be less and yes you are correct it gives a lot more control.

[Brucey]

This study suggests

55- and 50-mm grip spans were rated as the most comfortable sizes and showed the largest grip strength (433.6 N and 430.8 N

With one hand that’s over four times my body weight. .

er, you weigh about 11kg then...?

cheers

[Paulatic]

This study suggests

55- and 50-mm grip spans were rated as the most comfortable sizes and showed the largest grip strength (433.6 N and 430.8 N

With one hand that’s over four times my body weight. .

er, you weigh about 11kg then...?

cheers

I thought a N equalled 1 Kg?
It’s over 50 years since I did physics so prepared to be wrong.
Edit:
Google suggests nearly 10N to a Kg
Am I correct then that 430N is approx 43Kg so does that also equate to approx a 100lb of torque or am I barking up the wrong tree.

[Jdsk]

thought a N equalled 1 Kg?

No, you need to multiply mass by the local gravitational acceleration to get weight.

Rather conveniently that's about x10 in SI units. (10 m/s2)

Jonathan

PS: And also rather conveniently the apple that Newton didn't watch falling weighed about.... 1 newton.