Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Cyckelgalen
Posts: 221
Joined: 21 Sep 2018, 11:29am

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by Cyckelgalen »

In some hubs the races don't stick out enough to provide grip for a chisel. The rocket tools, used to extract headset races are too large for a hub race, there may be smaller similar tools. Certainly there are ways to knock out in many cases without damage to the shell, and fitting a new race in would be easy, simply applying heat to the shell and freezing the cup, but still, Shimano does not sell spare races. AFAIK only Campagnolo designed and sold replaceable races.
colin54
Posts: 2529
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 4:34pm

Re: Get the hub :-)

Post by colin54 »

mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 9:52am

And if I wanted to replace the fourth bearing race (NDS cup), how easy would you say it is to drive that out and drive the new one in?
With respect Mikey, if you buy the cone spanners to strip the hub and learn how to adjust the cones and lubricate the internals the chances are your hubs will live a long and happy life. My advice for what it's worth, would be to do this sooner rather than later or alternately get someone in a local bike shop to do it or show you how. There's plenty of information on here of the method. I think you may be in danger of over-thinking things a bit (no offence meant).
I'm not sure of the size of the spanners for your particular hub, they can vary even over Shimano hubs and back and front. If you buy a set you might find you need an odd extra one .
Returning to the subject of spares; I've bought, and had to use headset bearings over the past ten years, it can be a bit of a pain finding the correct size (stack height, bearing type, make etc) a few years down the line, if you know what the original type is for your bike, now might not be a bad time to get a spare one (or just a set of the bearings if you have the sealed cartridge type) .
Do I recall you live in Leeds? There's a bike workshop you can visit somewhere - can't remember the name-once the current situation clears a bit, I'm sure they'd point you in the right direction, you can use their tools, stands and get help and advice on maintenance/repairs.
Have fun.
Nu-Fogey
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Get the hub :-)

Post by mikeymo »

colin54 wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 1:39pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 9:52am

And if I wanted to replace the fourth bearing race (NDS cup), how easy would you say it is to drive that out and drive the new one in?
With respect Mikey, if you buy the cone spanners to strip the hub and learn how to adjust the cones and lubricate the internals the chances are your hubs will live a long and happy life. My advice for what it's worth, would be to do this sooner rather than later or alternately get someone in a local bike shop to do it or show you how. There's plenty of information on here of the method. I think you may be in danger of over-thinking things a bit (no offence meant).
No offence taken whatsoever. I may well be over-thinking things, that thought has crossed my mind (not a long journey!). Yes, I'm interested in learning and doing all the self-spannering I can. Also my cycling tends to be fair weather, on road, with mudguards, and I'm a leisurely "spinner", not a "masher", all of which, I hope, reduces the risk of wear or damage.
colin54 wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 1:39pmI'm not sure of the size of the spanners for your particular hub, they can vary even over Shimano hubs and back and front. If you buy a set you might find you need an odd extra one.
I think they're 13mm and 15mm. The bike workshop you're almost certainly thinking of is The Pedallers Arms...
https://pedallers-arms.org/
...which is indeed a fantastic resource. I went there to do some of the initial build-up of this bike (I made it myself), for things like headset press, torque wrenches, cassette and BB tools. I've now got some of those anyway, but I may well visit (once Covid allows) to do a hub service, both for guidance and to find out which cone spanner sizes I need. And when I went there were helpful people to give advice without actually doing the job for me. Which is perfect.
colin54 wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 1:39pm Returning to the subject of spares; I've bought, and had to use headset bearings over the past ten years, it can be a bit of a pain finding the correct size (stack height, bearing type, make etc) a few years down the line, if you know what the original type is for your bike, now might not be a bad time to get a spare one (or just a set of the bearings if you have the sealed cartridge type) .
Actually, I had a very similar discussion about headset bearings some time past. Which came to the same conclusion as your advice - "maintain it well and you shouldn't have problems". My headset is whatever came with the frame, VP something or other. It's got the original caged bearings in it, but I bought a big packet of high grade bearings and a pot of the CV grease Brucey recommended, so will be doing that when the weather forecast predicts a weekend of sun and no rain (I do oily work outside, for some reason my wife doesn't want grease on the dining room floor). I think I've got enough spare bearings for 10 complete renewals, so that should be enough, eh?

Cheers.
TheBomber
Posts: 525
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by TheBomber »

Fortunately the order of damage in hubs is usually bearings then cones then races. So you have a couple of opportunities to stop the rot before the hub is doomed. It’s also the reason why stainless bearings are not as good an idea as they might first seem - they relocate the damage caused by water ingress to a less replaceable part. Thanks to Brucey for pointing that one out.

For the hubs in the title you’ll need 13mm and 15mm cone spanners plus 15mm and 17mm regular spanners. You’ll need to get the cassette off and it’s easier, but possibly not essential, to get the disk out the way. The simplicity of those hubs makes them a great place to learn. On rim braked bikes I usually find the drive side rear to be the first to suffer water ingress. But with disks it seems to be the left side first.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

TheBomber wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 2:51pm Fortunately the order of damage in hubs is usually bearings then cones then races. So you have a couple of opportunities to stop the rot before the hub is doomed. It’s also the reason why stainless bearings are not as good an idea as they might first seem - they relocate the damage caused by water ingress to a less replaceable part. Thanks to Brucey for pointing that one out.

For the hubs in the title you’ll need 13mm and 15mm cone spanners plus 15mm and 17mm regular spanners. You’ll need to get the cassette off and it’s easier, but possibly not essential, to get the disk out the way. The simplicity of those hubs makes them a great place to learn. On rim braked bikes I usually find the drive side rear to be the first to suffer water ingress. But with disks it seems to be the left side first.
Thanks. I've got a pot of Grade 10 chrome steel 5/32" bearings ready for my headset. Is the idea that stainless steel bearings may be a bad thing for hubs due to their non-rusting characteristics, or due to hardness? I use stainless steel for things that are exposed to moisture, but I often wonder if it's wrong thinking to use them somewhere like a grease filled hub. If there's so little grease in it that the bearings have started to rust it seems to me that stainless steel won't really compensate for such poor maintenance.

Good to know that order of failure is the same as the order of cheap/easy replacement.
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 10:42am
Cyckelgalen wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 10:25am Replacing the NDS bearing cup is not feasible these days. Hubs are not designed to have the cups replaced, if you managed to pry it out of the hub shell, where would you get the replacement new race?

Even cones, that luckily wear wear first because the support the same load spread over a smaller surface, are getting difficult or uneconomical to source. If you can get both cones as separate spares plus fresh bearings you are often looking at a price similar to a whole new hub. To me it makes a lot of sense buying spare hubs to use the cones, axel, bearings, freehub, seals etc as spares. And only if you are unlucky to get a NDS race damaged, quite unlikely if you take reasonable care of your hubs, you would have to replace the hubshell and rebuild the wheel.
Thanks. As I said earlier up thread, I have indeed bought a complete new hub, which is in the post as I write.

Edit: This chap seems to remove a NDS cup relatively easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-3rkO6rNA

Admittedly he wasn't bothered about damaging the shell, though after he'd done it he claims that there wasn't any damage. Which, given that he was using a tool that is actually designed to "damage" things is maybe a good sign. If I were doing it I'd take care to find/design/make a suitable drift. And some sort of suitable press to get the cup back in (combined with fridge treatment).
Great video Mikey !!! A few years back I did the "2 cones plus 1 race" replacement on the cheaper version of the hubs we have been discussing here... the FH-M475. Unfortunately in some mad rush of blood to the head I chucked out all the "left over" bits (pictured). Having now seen your video I should have experimented with the hub shell and tried to remove the (brand new) non-drive side race. Next time ...
Remains of my FH-M475 internals swap - sadly all chucked out
Remains of my FH-M475 internals swap - sadly all chucked out
EDIT: I should also have kept the old freehub and harvested the adjusting shims .. what was I thinking of :-(
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:39pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 10:42am
Cyckelgalen wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 10:25am Replacing the NDS bearing cup is not feasible these days. Hubs are not designed to have the cups replaced, if you managed to pry it out of the hub shell, where would you get the replacement new race?

Even cones, that luckily wear wear first because the support the same load spread over a smaller surface, are getting difficult or uneconomical to source. If you can get both cones as separate spares plus fresh bearings you are often looking at a price similar to a whole new hub. To me it makes a lot of sense buying spare hubs to use the cones, axel, bearings, freehub, seals etc as spares. And only if you are unlucky to get a NDS race damaged, quite unlikely if you take reasonable care of your hubs, you would have to replace the hubshell and rebuild the wheel.
Thanks. As I said earlier up thread, I have indeed bought a complete new hub, which is in the post as I write.

Edit: This chap seems to remove a NDS cup relatively easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-3rkO6rNA

Admittedly he wasn't bothered about damaging the shell, though after he'd done it he claims that there wasn't any damage. Which, given that he was using a tool that is actually designed to "damage" things is maybe a good sign. If I were doing it I'd take care to find/design/make a suitable drift. And some sort of suitable press to get the cup back in (combined with fridge treatment).
Great video Mikey !!! A few years back I did the "2 cones plus 1 race" replacement on the cheaper version of the hubs we have been discussing here... the FH-M475. Unfortunately in some mad rush of blood I chucked out all the "left over" bits (pictured). Having now seen your video I should have experimented with the hub shell and tried to remove the (brand new) non-drive side race. Next time ...
remains.JPG
As another poster has said, I daresay I'm putting way too much thought into this. Still, everybody needs a hobby, eh?

So, given the slightly alarming sight of somebody using a cold chisel to knock out the bearing cup, I thought - "how difficult could it be to create a suitable drift". A suitable diameter and length of this, maybe:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113587777975 ... gJ-LvD_BwE

on the basis that brass is softer than steel, so shouldn't damage the cup too much.

Is the hub shell just a straight cylinder along it's entire length? So that a bar slightly smaller than it would work?
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:45pm
zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:39pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 10:42am

Thanks. As I said earlier up thread, I have indeed bought a complete new hub, which is in the post as I write.

Edit: This chap seems to remove a NDS cup relatively easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-3rkO6rNA

Admittedly he wasn't bothered about damaging the shell, though after he'd done it he claims that there wasn't any damage. Which, given that he was using a tool that is actually designed to "damage" things is maybe a good sign. If I were doing it I'd take care to find/design/make a suitable drift. And some sort of suitable press to get the cup back in (combined with fridge treatment).
Great video Mikey !!! A few years back I did the "2 cones plus 1 race" replacement on the cheaper version of the hubs we have been discussing here... the FH-M475. Unfortunately in some mad rush of blood I chucked out all the "left over" bits (pictured). Having now seen your video I should have experimented with the hub shell and tried to remove the (brand new) non-drive side race. Next time ...
remains.JPG
As another poster has said, I daresay I'm putting way too much thought into this. Still, everybody needs a hobby, eh?

So, given the slightly alarming sight of somebody using a cold chisel to knock out the bearing cup, I thought - "how difficult could it be to create a suitable drift". A suitable diameter and length of this, maybe:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113587777975 ... gJ-LvD_BwE

on the basis that brass is softer than steel, so shouldn't damage the cup too much.

Is the hub shell just a straight cylinder along it's entire length? So that a bar slightly smaller than it would work?
wish me luck .....
Attachments
Disassembling M525A hub...
Disassembling M525A hub...
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:13pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:45pm
zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:39pm
Great video Mikey !!! A few years back I did the "2 cones plus 1 race" replacement on the cheaper version of the hubs we have been discussing here... the FH-M475. Unfortunately in some mad rush of blood I chucked out all the "left over" bits (pictured). Having now seen your video I should have experimented with the hub shell and tried to remove the (brand new) non-drive side race. Next time ...
remains.JPG
As another poster has said, I daresay I'm putting way too much thought into this. Still, everybody needs a hobby, eh?

So, given the slightly alarming sight of somebody using a cold chisel to knock out the bearing cup, I thought - "how difficult could it be to create a suitable drift". A suitable diameter and length of this, maybe:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113587777975 ... gJ-LvD_BwE

on the basis that brass is softer than steel, so shouldn't damage the cup too much.

Is the hub shell just a straight cylinder along it's entire length? So that a bar slightly smaller than it would work?
wish me luck .....
Good luck. But why, it says that hub is "Ok" on it?
TheBomber
Posts: 525
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by TheBomber »

Those bearings will be fine. You can get SS bearings that are hard enough but as they will be the more ‘noble’ metal it means that if water gets in (especially if it’s salty) then the (galvanic) corrosion will likely be on the races first. Either way if you can keep the grease in and the water out all will be well.
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:24pm
zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:13pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 4:45pm

As another poster has said, I daresay I'm putting way too much thought into this. Still, everybody needs a hobby, eh?

So, given the slightly alarming sight of somebody using a cold chisel to knock out the bearing cup, I thought - "how difficult could it be to create a suitable drift". A suitable diameter and length of this, maybe:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113587777975 ... gJ-LvD_BwE

on the basis that brass is softer than steel, so shouldn't damage the cup too much.

Is the hub shell just a straight cylinder along it's entire length? So that a bar slightly smaller than it would work?
wish me luck .....
Good luck. But why, it says that hub is "Ok" on it?
No idea about the "OK".. its a little sticker so maybe its a QA. The hub came apart easily and reminded me why I like the Shimano stuff. Here are the pics .. you can see its just like the one in the YouTube video so I THINK we should be good to go with your "drift" plan Mikey. See what you think ... ?
FH-M525A pressed in non-driveside bearing cup
FH-M525A pressed in non-driveside bearing cup
Showing allen key behind the cup
Showing allen key behind the cup
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:44pm
mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:24pm
zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:13pm

wish me luck .....
Good luck. But why, it says that hub is "Ok" on it?
No idea about the "OK".. its a little sticker so maybe its a QA. The hub came apart easily and reminded me why I like the Shimano stuff. Here are the pics .. you can see its just like the one in the YouTube video so I THINK we should be good to go with your "drift" plan Mikey. See what you think ... ?
p1.JPG
p2.JPG
So it looks as though there's plenty of lip to get hold of there, judging by how much of that allen key is visible. So either a DIY drift made out of something suitably softish. Or maybe a socket on the end of something. Anyway, something round.

Are you actually proposing to knock that cup out? Because, well, it looks fine. If you do, let me know now it goes. Even if I never do it, it would still be good to know how easy, or not, it is.
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

Although in theory the drive side is wider than the non-drive side its not by much (12.5 vs 14mm). So pushing out the bearings in one go with a single 14mm drift would risk bending the race in the middle I think ? The YouTube method of gradually knocking it out at four points might be safer ?? What do people think ?
Attachments
Non drive side
Non drive side
Drive side
Drive side
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 5:58pm ......

Are you actually proposing to knock that cup out? Because, well, it looks fine. If you do, let me know now it goes. Even if I never do it, it would still be good to know how easy, or not, it is.
No not at this stage.. this is just a quick "look under the hood" to see if it is feasible. However I have some FH-M525SL hubs in use on my mountain bike so if they give out I could conceivably try to drift out the race on the old hub and to avoid a full wheel rebuild.... that said though I enjoy building wheels so even then I might just decide to swap out the whole hub ...

For now I am going to reassemble this spare hub and put it back in the hoard - it may well end up being built into a tandem wheel. Although I AM tempted to "top up" the standard amount of Shimano grease in the hub :-)

EDIT: having taken this FH-M525A hub apart I really like the double lip seals. I was worried because the previous version of this hub (ths FH-M525SL) had a very prominent rubber non-drive side seal on it which has gone on this model and I was worried Shimano was cost cutting. However the replacement seals look just as good to me.
User avatar
531colin
Posts: 16083
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by 531colin »

zenitb wrote: 10 Apr 2021, 6:01pm Although in theory the drive side is wider than the non-drive side its not by much (12.5 vs 14mm). So pushing out the bearings in one go with a single 14mm drift would risk bending the race in the middle I think ? The YouTube method of gradually knocking it out at four points might be safer ?? What do people think ?
If you have access to a big enough vise, I would try pressing it out. Something 14mm in diameter through the hub, and a bit of tube about 40mm diameter to push the cup into? (tube bears on disc mounts?)
Post Reply