Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

slowster wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 6:12pm Surly's new Disc Trucker requires thru axle hubs. If others follow where they lead (and they might be forced to if Shimano discontinue more of their traditional QR hub models), people with a lifetime's stock of spare hubs might find that they should also have bought some spare frames as well.

In fact when you also consider the reduction in choice of rims for rim braked bikes etc., maybe to be on the safe side they should buy some spare bikes. Eventually when they go on tour, if they have a major breakdown no bike shop will have suitable replacement parts anymore. So for touring they will also need a trailer on which they can carry a spare bike.
You seem to be mocking my approach. That's up to you, I suppose we all have different perspectives on how to prepare.

The "I might break down on tour so must have every spare with me" scenario you posit isn't really one I'm concerned about.

It's simpler than that.

In a few years high quality Shimano 9 speed derailleurs, for instance, could well be difficult to source. But not for me. I've got 3 XT RD-M772s on the shelf, two decent nick used, one NOS. So if my current RD fails, I reach up and 15 minutes later I'm cycling again.

I found that going to pre-NSSLR levers vastly improved the braking with my BB7s. The levers in question being Ultegra ST-6510s. That's not a current model, so I bought a spare pair. I also keep my eyes open for 105 and Tiagra shifters from the same era, as they seem to be compatible. If I crash and one of my shifters is broken, I can replace it the very same day with one off the shelf. That's my shelf.

In both those cases I don't have to mess around sourcing replacements for out-of-production components. And in both those cases when I come to the end of my cycling I'll have stuff I may well be able to sell.

Another positive to my approach is that I can have different bikes kitted out, to some extent, with compatible components. So the "spare" might not be on the shelf, but on a bike. This bike is a traditional tourer, in triple 9 speed. Shimano nine speed rear derailleurs are compatible across road and MTB. The Ultegra 6510s (and the matching 105 and Tiagra shifters) are dual double/triple, and that feature was something that made 6510s a conscious choice for me. Having a decent stock of that mix of drivetrain components gives me the option to knock up a faster lighter double bike. Or even a 1 x 9. Or a flat bar MTB. Or whatever. Using some of the components I already have in the "spares box".

Obviously the rather hyperbolic scenario you paint is possible. Anything is. And there is a limit to how much one can guard against potential component wear or failure. But my approach isn't preparing for any possible situation, it is preparing for quite foreseeable ones. I don't think that "this component works the way I want it to, I'll buy another one as a spare", is a particularly ridiculous approach.

So you may find my approach silly, but I have read enough forum posts, where people have struggled to find a replacement for a broken component and sometimes been forced to change many components they didn't need to, to believe that what I'm doing makes sense. It may not to you, but it does to me.
Last edited by mikeymo on 6 Apr 2021, 10:13pm, edited 2 times in total.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Longevity - FH-M756 vs FH-M525A

Post by mikeymo »

zenitb wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 8:53pm I don't know about you Mikey but one of the things that has always hacked me off with Cycling magazines/online reviewers etc is the "badge zealots" who, with zero actual knowledge of the parts concerned, boiler plate in comments like "XT is a little bit better than Deore", "Ultegra will be smoother than 105", while being too lazy to actually check whether their "journalism" has any factual basis. I first saw this in MBUK back in the 1990s but without the Internet it was hard to refute these "experts". However now we have the internet .... :-)
Yes, I agree. When somebody says that "X is better than Y" I like to hear an explanation of why it is. Such as "the fuffle valve in X is made out of stainless steel so won't rust, whereas the fuffle valve in Y is made out of plain steel and will rust, and the position the fuffle valve is in makes it susceptible to rust and if it rusts the blootering pin goes out of alignment and the discomknockerator might fail and kill you". Something like that.

In bike components I read (somewhere) that the very top end is mainly distinguished by slightly lower weight. Don't know how true that is. But on this particular subject I read (Sheldon?) that Dura Ace free hubs are aluminium, so actually wear faster. I read (also somewhere) that for longevity the best components are actually one or two positions down from the top of the "hierarchy". That would make sense to some extent. After all, maybe super fast sports cyclists who buy Dura Ace to save every last gram are also the ones who change bikes frequently, and are prepared to spend a lot of money doing so. Whereas keen cyclists who just want something decent quality that will last, and don't want to break the bank doing it, will be perfectly happy with Ultegra/105 (or whatever).
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Longevity - FH-M756 vs FH-M525A

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 10:04pm
zenitb wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 8:53pm I don't know about you Mikey but one of the things that has always hacked me off with Cycling magazines/online reviewers etc is the "badge zealots" who, with zero actual knowledge of the parts concerned, boiler plate in comments like "XT is a little bit better than Deore", "Ultegra will be smoother than 105", while being too lazy to actually check whether their "journalism" has any factual basis. I first saw this in MBUK back in the 1990s but without the Internet it was hard to refute these "experts". However now we have the internet .... :-)
Yes, I agree. When somebody says that "X is better than Y" I like to hear an explanation of why it is. Such as "the fuffle valve in X is made out of stainless steel so won't rust, whereas the fuffle valve in Y is made out of plain steel and will rust, and the position the fuffle valve is in makes it susceptible to rust and if it rusts the blootering pin goes out of alignment and the discomknockerator might fail and kill you". Something like that.

In bike components I read (somewhere) that the very top end is mainly distinguished by slightly lower weight. Don't know how true that is. But on this particular subject I read (Sheldon?) that Dura Ace free hubs are aluminium, so actually wear faster. I read (also somewhere) that for longevity the best components are actually one or two positions down from the top of the "hierarchy". That would make sense to some extent. After all, maybe super fast sports cyclists who buy Dura Ace to save every last gram are also the ones who change bikes frequently, and are prepared to spend a lot of money doing so. Whereas keen cyclists who just want something decent quality that will last, and don't want to break the bank doing it, will be perfectly happy with Ultegra/105 (or whatever).
Agreed - and I think there is little difference between the two we are looking at regarding longevity. I only have the FH-M525SL (earlier version of the FH-M525A) in use currently but that is in some custom MTB wheels Merlin made for me that have had a severe battering on three mountain bikes (including one where I snapped the frame) and, apart from a bit of occasional maintenance (just greasing bearings) have been zero hassle over about 10 years of on/off use.

I looked at the two hubs and took some photos. The black surface finish of the FH-M756 hub was certainly smoother to the touch than the silver painted finish of the FH-M525A (and I would imagine a silver FH-M756 would be nice if they actually did one !!!). But the FH-525A hub finish is durable - as on my current hubs. Hopefully the photos show the extra machining steps that are involved in the more expensive hub. It looks to me as if this saves 18g - nothing for a touring bike.

I think going for the cheaper hubs was a good move by Spa. As you allude to in your post above the newer XT and XTR hubs now use a larger diameter aluminum axle and smaller diameter bearing to fit round it - so for traditionalists like me (and I suspect Spa) these "steel axle" hubs really are the "sweet spot" your refer to. I will be quite happy to use the FH-M525A in my next wheel build. See what you think Mikey ...
Attachments
P1050133.JPG
P1050131.JPG
Last edited by zenitb on 6 Apr 2021, 11:01pm, edited 4 times in total.
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

Weight differences
Attachments
A.JPG
B.JPG
zenitb
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Aug 2018, 9:59pm
Contact:

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by zenitb »

mikeymo wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 9:49pm
slowster wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 6:12pm ....... So for touring they will also need a trailer on which they can carry a spare bike.
......So if my current RD fails, I reach up and 15 minutes later I'm cycling again.

....... If I crash and one of my shifters is broken, I can replace it the very same day with one off the shelf. That's my shelf.

...... I don't think that "this component works the way I want it to, I'll buy another one as a spare", is a particularly ridiculous approach.

...... I have read enough forum posts, where people have struggled to find a replacement for a broken component and sometimes been forced to change many components they didn't need to,
Everyone is different but what you set out above is 100% my approach Mikey.

One of the factors in my case it is a result of commuting to work and actually relying on the bike day in day out. Looking at a broken, discontinued component at 8pm at night its great to know I have a spare sitting ready on MY shelf .. exactly as you say.

I used to have 8 speed Shimano kit on my tourer, ride to work bike, AND my tandem so there was some commonality and spares sharing as well - much as you describe above. However I have wisely/unwisely(?) moved the tandem on to 10 speed (to get lower and closer gears) and am already hoarding 10 speed bits (cassette, chain and even 160mm stoker cranks now - but need rear mech) in the expectation they will become scarce as 12 speed takes over. I really don't .want to change the entire tandem transmission (where the ratios are now perfect) just because someone at Shimano flicks a switch on their 10 speed production line.

Your mileage may vary on this though - if you can take a bit of downtime off the bike hunting for spares, or like to follow the trends and regularly upgrade kit this could be fun for the right person or someone who drops their bike in the bike shop for fixes. I am quite aware that for some people its better just to keep the bike current.. and upgrade as and when necessary - fair enough.

For me though ... I am the Smaug of Shimano new old stock :-) :-) :-)
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4669
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by slowster »

mikeymo wrote: 6 Apr 2021, 9:49pmYou seem to be mocking my approach.
Not you personally (hence using 'they' rather than 'you'), and if I am mocking anyone it would be myself given the quantity of spares I have accumulated.

There is also a half-serious point, which is that it's impossible to predict with confidence what Shimano will do and how bikes may change over the next 10 years. 531colin has posted that he laid up a stock of 9 speed cassettes in anticipation of them being discontinued, only to find that his cassettes are showing minimal signs of wear and he wishes he had instead spent his money stocking up on old model Greenguard tyres.

I think this is something where in the long run we can't win, except possibly by opting out of Shimano/Campagnolo/SRAM and going for other options which will not necessarily suit everyone and which are often expensive because they are low volume manufacture/high quality, e.g. Rohloff, Rene Herse Cycles, Kindernay etc.
User avatar
531colin
Posts: 16148
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by 531colin »

Just checked, and my hub hoard all appear to be M756; thats XT 6 bolt with a steel axle.
Its in my mind that at the time I started buying them up, XT hubs for RIM brakes had gone over to alloy axles to shave a bit of weight, with the downside of smaller bearings as mentioned previously, and also some questions over the freewheel mechanism at least in early alloy axle hubs.
I don't know if XT DISC hubs ever went over to alloy axles....disc hubs with a steel axle were available long after the rim brake hubs went over to alloy axles.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

531colin wrote: 7 Apr 2021, 9:05am Just checked, and my hub hoard all appear to be M756; thats XT 6 bolt with a steel axle.
Its in my mind that at the time I started buying them up, XT hubs for RIM brakes had gone over to alloy axles to shave a bit of weight, with the downside of smaller bearings as mentioned previously, and also some questions over the freewheel mechanism at least in early alloy axle hubs.
I don't know if XT DISC hubs ever went over to alloy axles....disc hubs with a steel axle were available long after the rim brake hubs went over to alloy axles.
Thanks Colin. Elsewhere in these forums I read a report by PeeTee (who I think is a cycle mechanic) of a series of M525A failures he had seen (IIRC). And the recommendation, that new hubs should be serviced after a while:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=118445&p=1180319&hi ... b#p1180319

For this bike "after a while" might be about now. So time for me to buy whatever tools that needs.

I think I read somewhere here that new hubs should be serviced. You're right, there's a sticker on the wheel, so I can call Spa and ask the wheel builder if they did that.

Thanks for the input on this everybody.
Last edited by mikeymo on 7 Apr 2021, 11:15am, edited 1 time in total.
TheBomber
Posts: 526
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by TheBomber »

This previously built but unused one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-Deor ... SwYVhgaEIm

is £22 delivered. I'd be surprised if there are many spare freehub bodies available for less and this way you get free cones, seals and bearings, all securely packed inside a handy hub shell until the day you need them :D

Once you have a backup I am a fan of learning how to open and service the freehub body internals - not least because in my recent experience even new ones are coming out the factory with too many shims inside them, leading to play and consequent occasional slipping on the pawls. Obviously Brucey has posted much on this before.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

TheBomber wrote: 7 Apr 2021, 9:50am This previously built but unused one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-Deor ... SwYVhgaEIm

is £22 delivered. I'd be surprised if there are many spare freehub bodies available for less and this way you get free cones, seals and bearings, all securely packed inside a handy hub shell until the day you need them :D

Once you have a backup I am a fan of learning how to open and service the freehub body internals - not least because in my recent experience even new ones are coming out the factory with too many shims inside them, leading to play and consequent occasional slipping on the pawls. Obviously Brucey has posted much on this before.
Lovely, thanks for that. I've bought it. I don't know why I hadn't seen it in my various searches.

I'd only just got off the phone from Spa, I think the hubs they are advertising as M525 are actually M525A. At least the chap went and got one off the shelf. And in the new "Wheelbuilder" section the hub is listed as M525 but in the drop down options box is listed as M525A.

Your post has done Spa out of the sale of a hub, but I don't suppose it will bankrupt them.
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by Jamesh »

What I intend to do is to cascade my groupsets down from my best bike down to my winter bikes.

So I have
10spd tiagra new

10spd 105 old

9 speed tiagra X2. CX and steel winter bikes.

When one of the 9 speed breaks / wears out I'll use the 10 speed to sort it. Treating the summer bike to 11spd 105 probably...

Cheers James
rogerzilla
Posts: 2918
Joined: 9 Jun 2008, 8:06pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by rogerzilla »

The 10 to 11 speed compatibility break is the biggest issue currently. Premium 10 speed rear mechs and shifters are getting hard to find and expensive. Your average rider with a busted DA or Ultegra STI unit doesn't want Tiagra, nor does he/she want to replace the whole lot with 11 speed.
TheBomber
Posts: 526
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by TheBomber »

I don't know why I hadn't seen it in my various searches
That is just one of the many modern day mysteries where different people are presented with different options even when they search for the same item. I was actually trying to look in my usual go to source for freehub bodies ('woollyhatshop') but couldn't work out how to do a search within their hundreds of listings. I ended up searching all of Ebay, and then ticked 'UK only'.
mikeymo
Posts: 2299
Joined: 27 Sep 2016, 6:23pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by mikeymo »

rogerzilla wrote: 7 Apr 2021, 10:49am The 10 to 11 speed compatibility break is the biggest issue currently. Premium 10 speed rear mechs and shifters are getting hard to find and expensive. Your average rider with a busted DA or Ultegra STI unit doesn't want Tiagra, nor does he/she want to replace the whole lot with 11 speed.
I got the impression that 9 speed to 10 speed was also a a fairly major "compatibility break". Certainly the complete (?) compatibility between Shimano 9 speed rear derailleurs, both Road and MTB, was one of the reasons I fixed on that. Also the 9 speed triple FDs I think are always the same cable pull, whereas 10s aren't maybe - or something like that, I forget the exact detail, but something Brucey posted once about FDs made me think - "ah, I have chosen wisely".

My principle incompatibility issue is the pre/post NSSLR brake cable pull issue. Hence my reversion to Ultegra 9 speed STIs, the better to match my BB7s (which also I suppose I should back up). Though of course I could have stuck with modern Sora levers and changed my callipers to Paul Klampers (and that wouldn't have been any more expensive than the NOS Ultegra STIs I bought, by the way). I might still do that at some time in the future.
Last edited by mikeymo on 7 Apr 2021, 11:11am, edited 2 times in total.
TheBomber
Posts: 526
Joined: 16 Feb 2020, 8:18pm

Re: Shimano FH-M525A - buy spare or another?

Post by TheBomber »

nor does he/she want to replace the whole lot with 11 speed
This is so true. Especially when 11 speed means you're pretty much guaranteed to be stuck with an 11T sprocket (aka 'spacer') as the reward for all the expense.
Post Reply