Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
- Bluesbiker
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Apr 2021, 4:09pm
Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
HI one and all. had been lurking for a while but some issues with my new bike have prompted me to join and hopefully get some advice.
After a few years out of the saddle for various reasons - both good and bad - the Covid situation and increasing thoughts about my own health and wellbeing. Cue some serious weight loss and the decision to get back in the saddle and hopefully improve my fitness and lose the remaining flab. As a gift my better half bought me a new bike. An Orbea MX 30 Mountain Bike.
Unfortuantely, the covid situation meant that not only could I not travel outside the local area to look at bikes but many had sold out and what was left had seen a hefty price increase. Reluctantly I looked online and found the Orbea at Sigma Sports.
Arrived safely within a couple of weeks and after giving it a quick check over, adjusting the handlebars and a tweak to the brakes I was good to go. Didn't feel to bad, although it was clear the gears would need a little tweak and the 29" wheels took a bit of getting used to coming from the 26" I was used to.
Have probably done 20 miles on it on nothing more than roads path and a section of the Trans Pennine that is nice and flat if a litlle muddy. Over this short amount of time things deteriorated. It felt like the bike wasn't tracking right and the rear wheel felt like it was sliding if I did any corners even at a reasonably slow speed. I also felt like the bike was leaning to the left ever so slightly and I was leaning slightly right to compensate. Changing gears was causing the chain to jump down to the lower cogs with a thud. Absolutely nothing had touched the rear derailleur. No rough bumps or falls.
Looking down whilst riding I noticed the wheel had moved closer to the left chainstay so I immediately got home to check it out. Loosening the QR it was immediately clear the axle hadn't been seated fully in the dropouts. Fully seating the wheel and doing up the QR the wheel was now sitting much closer to the left chainstay. About 4 - 4 1/2mm approx. It's fairly centred in the seatstays. Perhaps a mil to the left.
It looks like the wheel is out of plumb rather than being laterally displaced which is what I'd expect if it needed dishing. It looks like the wheel was centred in the chainstays and the QR was done up tight but not tight enough that weight and movement started to shift it. It would also appear the movement of the wheel has messed with my gear shifting.
A few questions...
Could this still be a dishing issue given that it's askew rather than laterally shifted to one side or the other? A few non scientific checks with a ruler seems to show either some asymetry in the chainstays and / or dropouts. Not uncommon I know but this seems excessive and is definately affecting my ride.
I know dropouts can be shimmed or filed but I don't really want to do that to a new bike unless I have no other option. I should get someone knowledgeable to look it over so If anyone can recommend someone in the Warrington area i'd be glad to use their services.
The bike is under warranty but the info doesn't mention frame alignment issues. Only cracks and defects in the paintwork. Is it even worth my while trying to get this sorted under warranty or am I out of luck. I know manufacturers have certain tolerances and you can't get absolute perfection but this seems to be an issue I can't just live with and ignore as it's affecting the whole feel of the bike and if that wheel goes out of shape it's going to be rubbing against that stay.
What do you think?
Stayrim2 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Stayrim1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Dropouts by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
DropoutAxle1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210404_1835482 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210412_193708 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210404_170101 - Copy by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Hope these photos are of some use...
After a few years out of the saddle for various reasons - both good and bad - the Covid situation and increasing thoughts about my own health and wellbeing. Cue some serious weight loss and the decision to get back in the saddle and hopefully improve my fitness and lose the remaining flab. As a gift my better half bought me a new bike. An Orbea MX 30 Mountain Bike.
Unfortuantely, the covid situation meant that not only could I not travel outside the local area to look at bikes but many had sold out and what was left had seen a hefty price increase. Reluctantly I looked online and found the Orbea at Sigma Sports.
Arrived safely within a couple of weeks and after giving it a quick check over, adjusting the handlebars and a tweak to the brakes I was good to go. Didn't feel to bad, although it was clear the gears would need a little tweak and the 29" wheels took a bit of getting used to coming from the 26" I was used to.
Have probably done 20 miles on it on nothing more than roads path and a section of the Trans Pennine that is nice and flat if a litlle muddy. Over this short amount of time things deteriorated. It felt like the bike wasn't tracking right and the rear wheel felt like it was sliding if I did any corners even at a reasonably slow speed. I also felt like the bike was leaning to the left ever so slightly and I was leaning slightly right to compensate. Changing gears was causing the chain to jump down to the lower cogs with a thud. Absolutely nothing had touched the rear derailleur. No rough bumps or falls.
Looking down whilst riding I noticed the wheel had moved closer to the left chainstay so I immediately got home to check it out. Loosening the QR it was immediately clear the axle hadn't been seated fully in the dropouts. Fully seating the wheel and doing up the QR the wheel was now sitting much closer to the left chainstay. About 4 - 4 1/2mm approx. It's fairly centred in the seatstays. Perhaps a mil to the left.
It looks like the wheel is out of plumb rather than being laterally displaced which is what I'd expect if it needed dishing. It looks like the wheel was centred in the chainstays and the QR was done up tight but not tight enough that weight and movement started to shift it. It would also appear the movement of the wheel has messed with my gear shifting.
A few questions...
Could this still be a dishing issue given that it's askew rather than laterally shifted to one side or the other? A few non scientific checks with a ruler seems to show either some asymetry in the chainstays and / or dropouts. Not uncommon I know but this seems excessive and is definately affecting my ride.
I know dropouts can be shimmed or filed but I don't really want to do that to a new bike unless I have no other option. I should get someone knowledgeable to look it over so If anyone can recommend someone in the Warrington area i'd be glad to use their services.
The bike is under warranty but the info doesn't mention frame alignment issues. Only cracks and defects in the paintwork. Is it even worth my while trying to get this sorted under warranty or am I out of luck. I know manufacturers have certain tolerances and you can't get absolute perfection but this seems to be an issue I can't just live with and ignore as it's affecting the whole feel of the bike and if that wheel goes out of shape it's going to be rubbing against that stay.
What do you think?
Stayrim2 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Stayrim1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Dropouts by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
DropoutAxle1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210404_1835482 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210412_193708 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
20210404_170101 - Copy by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Hope these photos are of some use...
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Flip the wheel round (so the cassette is on the LH side) and see if it’s the same. If the situation has reversed then you know it’s a wheel dish problem. If it’s the same, then you have frame/dropout alignment issues and I advise you take it back to the seller, who is obliged to fix it or replace it.
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Clearance between the tyre and chainstays will not necessarily be the same on the drive side and the non-drive side. The chainstay on the drive side might have additional crimping/bending/manipulation in order to ensure sufficient clearance from the chainrings.
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
might be difficult to flip it given there's a disc brake in the way. Something is clearly off but exactly what is difficult to say without checking the frame and wheel alignment.ElCani wrote: ↑14 Apr 2021, 7:17pm Flip the wheel round (so the cassette is on the LH side) and see if it’s the same. If the situation has reversed then you know it’s a wheel dish problem. If it’s the same, then you have frame/dropout alignment issues and I advise you take it back to the seller, who is obliged to fix it or replace it.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
531colin's guide to checking frame alignment with a piece of string here:
viewtopic.php?p=501647#p501647
viewtopic.php?p=501647#p501647
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Does the wheel sit centrally in between the seat stays? If off center, try the wheel the other way round as well.
If you have/can borrow another wheel (same 135mm dropout/lock nut width), try fitting that the right and wrong way round.
You, or a mechanic could check the rear end of the frame alignment. ie, are the drop outs equally spaced away from the center line, or is the rear end pushed (or in your case) built off center?
See https://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html and scroll down to "Checking Alignment (Symmetry)".
You need your nice metal ruler and a long piece of string.
Your picture viewed from the rear/wheel removed/pencil across the dropouts. If the pencil if fully in each dropout and on the barrel section of the pencil (ie not the point taper), then it looks like the LH dropout is higher up than the RH dropout. In which case, the frame is built out of track - send it back if that is the case. You have enough photos to make your case.
If you send it back, note the frame number. As it is an aluminium frame, it is not a case of bending/setting aligning - you can't do that with aluminium frames (unlike steel, where you can). You won't want the same one back, so you can check the frame number of the replacement.
If the wheel is correctly dished, and the frame's rear triangle straight, it should be ok. If there is any difference, it could be due to the bending/crimping of the RH chainstay for chain ring clearance etc. as mentioned up thread.
If you have/can borrow another wheel (same 135mm dropout/lock nut width), try fitting that the right and wrong way round.
You, or a mechanic could check the rear end of the frame alignment. ie, are the drop outs equally spaced away from the center line, or is the rear end pushed (or in your case) built off center?
See https://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html and scroll down to "Checking Alignment (Symmetry)".
You need your nice metal ruler and a long piece of string.
Your picture viewed from the rear/wheel removed/pencil across the dropouts. If the pencil if fully in each dropout and on the barrel section of the pencil (ie not the point taper), then it looks like the LH dropout is higher up than the RH dropout. In which case, the frame is built out of track - send it back if that is the case. You have enough photos to make your case.
If you send it back, note the frame number. As it is an aluminium frame, it is not a case of bending/setting aligning - you can't do that with aluminium frames (unlike steel, where you can). You won't want the same one back, so you can check the frame number of the replacement.
If the wheel is correctly dished, and the frame's rear triangle straight, it should be ok. If there is any difference, it could be due to the bending/crimping of the RH chainstay for chain ring clearance etc. as mentioned up thread.
- Bluesbiker
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Apr 2021, 4:09pm
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Thankyou for the reply’s and advice!
I’ll try the string trick tomorrow and I’ll see if I can remove the brake disc to flip the wheel.
If not I’ll find someone to check whether it’s properly dished or not as this will be the first thing Sigma / Orbea ask me I suspect.
The pencil was on the flat side at the deepest point of the dropouts. Not very scientific I know but definitely seems to show an issue. Had to repeat it a few times as I was convinced my girlfriend wasn’t holding it right!
Interesting about the chainstay asymmetry. Orbea doesn’t advertise asymmetrical chainstays as a feature on this bike but does on some of the higher end ones. Looking straight down it does look like there’s a little bit of asymmetry which is probably making things look worse... Then again I can’t see it in some of the other pics I took. Will do more measuring tomorrow to get a better look.
20210404_182050 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
I’ll try the string trick tomorrow and I’ll see if I can remove the brake disc to flip the wheel.
If not I’ll find someone to check whether it’s properly dished or not as this will be the first thing Sigma / Orbea ask me I suspect.
The pencil was on the flat side at the deepest point of the dropouts. Not very scientific I know but definitely seems to show an issue. Had to repeat it a few times as I was convinced my girlfriend wasn’t holding it right!
Interesting about the chainstay asymmetry. Orbea doesn’t advertise asymmetrical chainstays as a feature on this bike but does on some of the higher end ones. Looking straight down it does look like there’s a little bit of asymmetry which is probably making things look worse... Then again I can’t see it in some of the other pics I took. Will do more measuring tomorrow to get a better look.
20210404_182050 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Does look a bit off going on the screw just forward of the wheel?
Can you not push the wheel over as you tighten the QR?
Cheers James
Can you not push the wheel over as you tighten the QR?
Cheers James
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Its wrong.
Some of your photos confuse millimeters with centimeters....correct that, then send the photos to the vendor.
Tell the vendor that you require either a full refund or a replacement, and that you require them to pay carriage.
Don't muck about taking anything to pieces, even taking the brake disc off, because they will say stuff like you have been messing about with it and broken it.
nice pictures, by the way, I can't do any of that stuff with the lines!
Some of your photos confuse millimeters with centimeters....correct that, then send the photos to the vendor.
Tell the vendor that you require either a full refund or a replacement, and that you require them to pay carriage.
Don't muck about taking anything to pieces, even taking the brake disc off, because they will say stuff like you have been messing about with it and broken it.
nice pictures, by the way, I can't do any of that stuff with the lines!
Bike fitting D.I.Y. .....http://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bike-set-up-2017a.pdf
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
Tracks in the Dales etc...http://www.flickr.com/photos/52358536@N06/collections/
- Bluesbiker
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Apr 2021, 4:09pm
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
I can, in fact that is how the bike started off but it results in the axle sitting away from the deepest point of the dropout and the only way to keep it there would be to do the QR up tighter than what is probably healthy. Some of the paint is already chipped from the pressure but that wouldn’t bother me too much if everything else was ok.
- Bluesbiker
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Apr 2021, 4:09pm
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Good spot on the mm / cm error!!!531colin wrote: ↑14 Apr 2021, 9:16pm Its wrong.
Some of your photos confuse millimeters with centimeters....correct that, then send the photos to the vendor.
Tell the vendor that you require either a full refund or a replacement, and that you require them to pay carriage.
Don't muck about taking anything to pieces, even taking the brake disc off, because they will say stuff like you have been messing about with it and broken it.
nice pictures, by the way, I can't do any of that stuff with the lines!
You are probably right that removing any parts could void the warranty, although I will still take some measurements with the string attached. The picture with the pencil in the dropouts seems damning but I don’t want to give them any wriggle room.
The lines are just the line tool in Microsoft Paint. Trick is getting the camera square onto the object in question which was easier said than done with the phone camera.
- Bluesbiker
- Posts: 5
- Joined: 14 Apr 2021, 4:09pm
Re: Uncentred Wheel Between Chainstays
Took another picture of the rear dropouts with the ruler and a spirit level. that way they can't say the pencil must be bent!!!
Also took measurements with the string and got the exact same measurement both sides so the issue is squarely with the dropouts.
As luck would have it a neighbour spotted me messing with the bike and the string. He brought over the wheel from one of his bikes and sure enough it was skewed the same as mine. He agreed something was clearly amiss with the dropouts. so, I think it's safe to say between the photos, your views and that of my neighbour that i'm not imagining it!
Sigma have been emailed with the photos so we'll see what happens.
I'm going to push for a refund I think and go with a different brand... If I can find a bike in stock with the features I want that isn't overpriced.
I'll let you know how this goes...
Again, thankyou for your help!
FrameAlign1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
DropoutAxle2 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
Also took measurements with the string and got the exact same measurement both sides so the issue is squarely with the dropouts.
As luck would have it a neighbour spotted me messing with the bike and the string. He brought over the wheel from one of his bikes and sure enough it was skewed the same as mine. He agreed something was clearly amiss with the dropouts. so, I think it's safe to say between the photos, your views and that of my neighbour that i'm not imagining it!
Sigma have been emailed with the photos so we'll see what happens.
I'm going to push for a refund I think and go with a different brand... If I can find a bike in stock with the features I want that isn't overpriced.
I'll let you know how this goes...
Again, thankyou for your help!
FrameAlign1 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr
DropoutAxle2 by MikeGBlues, on Flickr