Ebike price crash

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
ClappedOut
Posts: 585
Joined: 30 May 2020, 12:43am

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by ClappedOut »

Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:03pm
ClappedOut wrote: 16 May 2021, 3:54pmWhen did petrol motor assistance get outlawed?
In the UK? AIUI never. The category with the lowest permitted power and speed is the moped. But the requirement for pedals was removed in 1977.

https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements\

Jonathan
So a historic bicycle with a petrol motor would have a number plate and V5?

Guessing even a motorcycle licence a bicycle with daytime mot and motor unregisterable?

Just interested
Bonzo Banana
Posts: 416
Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by Bonzo Banana »

Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2021, 2:01pm Manufacturing in the UK is strong, employs lots of people, creates wealth which can be taxed, and generates exports.

But it is shaped very differently from how it was.

Jonathan
We have a huge trade deficit, left the EU with £1.8 trillion of debt and have now added to that with the pandemic so well over £2 trillion debt and our NIIP rating shows we are in a asset deficit. We are heading towards a huge financial crunch and real poverty is sadly the future for the majority in the UK as servicing this debt is getting more and more difficult. This information is easily available from the office of national statistics etc but any person can see the British brands and factories are much reduced and mostly gone.

Until we return to a trading surplus and pay off our debts this countries situation will get worse and worse but sadly politicians and the general population have little understanding of this. Most people are happy to spend most of their wages on foreign goods and holidays but then complain that the NHS is underfunded or the road have potholes. It's the nature of people sadly who expect so much from others but nothing from themselves.
Bonzo Banana
Posts: 416
Joined: 5 Feb 2017, 11:58am

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by Bonzo Banana »

jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 1:20pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: 16 May 2021, 12:57pm
jo' bo wrote: 15 May 2021, 6:14pm

I've work3d

I've fell for this hand built by British craftsmen line before, only to realise belatedly that the highly skill british craftsmen were turning out a vastly inferior product to japanese robots.

That's what sent triumph meridian to the scrap heap of history, its seem Raleigh special products followed them , for very much the same reason that they ran out of gullible people

In what way is the frame better than say the 2010 Carrera vengeance frame I'm looking at now, it's the bases of my current " special product " build and its rather good and hand built by Taiwanese robots, with out a hang over
It's unlikely a Carrera frame is made by robots as I think that is aluminium and the robots you see in bicycle factories are normally used for steel frames. Most bicycle frames made in the world are still steel, i.e. sold in Asia, Africa, South America and entry level models elsewhere. Steel manufacturing has evolved to the point where steel frames can be quickly and safely made by robots but aluminium and carbon fibre are much more labour intensive with carbon fibre being very labour intensive. I saw somewhere that it takes 700x as long to make one carbon fibre frame compared to a one steel frame (robot). Hence why basic steel frames can be as low as $5 from a Chinese factory, aluminium about $20 but carbon fibre about $80 factory door price. Those prices are about 3 to 4 years old when I looked into prices at the factories.

I personally think there were fantastic frame builders in the UK who did incredible work with steel, they evolved their skills over time but sadly the UK became too expensive to manufacture in. I remember the Nissan factory in Sunderland being rated as one of the most efficient in the world. There is no reason to think that people in the UK can't make incredible quality products. It's really down to industries evolving over time but of course those industries are mostly gone now. Taiwan has lost a lot of its skill base as many factories have moved to mainland China, Cambodia or Vietnam. The world always wants cheaper products. Those people developing great skills in Cambodia could be out of a job in 10 years when the factory moves to somewhere cheaper.
I've worked at the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and its notable for its robots , so yes a quality british product made by japanese robots

Just about all the cycle metal frames from main manufactures and all made in the same mechanised factory and most of these ate aluminium coz one irs better and two is the most cost effective tO use robots on so cheap

I've no idea what back street cycles makers in India use, but almost definetly not hydro formed ali

Carbon is indeed some what more labour intensive, so more exspensive, well apart from all the cheap carbon coming out of the same factories as the exspensive carbon, I'm not yet convinced its actually the future of cycling, rather than a race specific component, I suspect its largely irelivant to most cyclists apart from bragging rights

I'm not sure where your plunging into the discusion.

My point is that mass produced ali in mechanised factories is an exceptionally good material for cycles frames, the build quality on even budget bikes is exceptional

I belive its better than hand built steel, it's certainly no worse on any objective measure .

Subjective however is a different matter and people can do what they want as long as they dont tell me I'm wrong based on their subjectivity
I don't need to have worked at Nissan Sunderland to know a huge amount of the assembly is done by people not just robots this is clear to see in any image of the factory floor.

Halfords buy from different factories for different price points, different brands and may change by year. Carrera bikes have been made all over Asia in recent times. Cambodia, Vietnam, Taiwan, mainland China and possibly others. Some of the ebikes have been assembled in Europe (Czech Republic) from parts from Asia. Apollo bikes tend use cheaper factories Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc and Boardman may have more frames actually from Taiwan. I think the quality of the frames do vary as the processes each factory use may vary. I think fuji-ta phosphate dip their steel frames but not all factories do that. This can give long term rust protection. You get phosphate dipped frames on very cheap steel bikes from fuji-ta.

Any classic British, Italian, French high end steel frame is going to be a compromise as it will use butted tubes and those are more vulnerable to rust in the thin sections of the tubes. The more enjoyable a bike is to ride typically the more dangerous and short life its frames and forks are. However those classic steel frames are still beautifully manufactured by very skilled individuals.

My motivation as a cyclist is always a strong bike as I'm a heavy rider the majority are motivated by lightness when it comes to their bikes it seems.
mattsccm
Posts: 5101
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by mattsccm »

" The more enjoyable a bike is to ride typically the more dangerous and short life its frames and forks are." I would question this or at least want it qualifying. Not the enjoyable bit but the assumption that thin steel is fragile. It's abuse that is dangerous. An abused 753 frame may be fragile but a perfectly looked after one will be fine. An abused chunky will be the same.
mattsccm
Posts: 5101
Joined: 28 Nov 2009, 9:44pm

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by mattsccm »

"Subjective however is a different matter and people can do what they want as long as they dont tell me I'm wrong based on their subjectivity"
But you are so subjective with regards to bikes.
dcbwhaley
Posts: 10
Joined: 25 Apr 2021, 2:39pm

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by dcbwhaley »

Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:03pm
ClappedOut wrote: 16 May 2021, 3:54pmWhen did petrol motor assistance get outlawed?
In the UK? AIUI never. The category with the lowest permitted power and speed is the moped. But the requirement for pedals was removed in 1977.

https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements\

Jonathan
In the immediate post war years there was a motor that sat on the rack above the rear wheel and drove through a friction wheel.
There was also the BSA Winged Wheel https://cyclemaster.wordpress.com/page- ... ourt-show/
Would these now be considered to be mopeds?
Jdsk
Posts: 24627
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by Jdsk »

I don't know how they would be classified if built before the current regulations were introduced... there's often a relaxed provision for historic vehicles.

If built now with ic engines I think that they could be mopeds if they met the engine capacity and speed restrictions, and would then qualify for the lower age limit for riders, and would require the riders to wear helmets.

And if the rider wanted to use a bump start while riding they'd need pedals, although they're no longer mandated for mopeds.

Jonathan
Nigel
Posts: 463
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by Nigel »

dcbwhaley wrote: 21 May 2021, 5:19pm
Jdsk wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:03pm
ClappedOut wrote: 16 May 2021, 3:54pmWhen did petrol motor assistance get outlawed?
In the UK? AIUI never. The category with the lowest permitted power and speed is the moped. But the requirement for pedals was removed in 1977.

https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-mope ... quirements\

Jonathan
In the immediate post war years there was a motor that sat on the rack above the rear wheel and drove through a friction wheel.
There was also the BSA Winged Wheel https://cyclemaster.wordpress.com/page- ... ourt-show/
Would these now be considered to be mopeds?
Yes they're mopeds and need a license plate and road tax (an over 40 year example will be free under the "historic vehicle" rules). Rider needs motorcycle license for engine capacity and power output, have insurance for that vehicle, and must wear a motorcycle helmet.

If you find an old one in a shed, these people may be able to help date it and get it registered for use:
http://www.autocycle.org.uk/v765.html

It is only the electric pedal assisted cycle where you're allowed a "motor" without all the stuff around vehicle registration and driving licenses.

- Nigel
ClappedOut
Posts: 585
Joined: 30 May 2020, 12:43am

Re: Ebike price crash

Post by ClappedOut »

Interesting stuff
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