jo' bo wrote: ↑16 May 2021, 1:20pm
Bonzo Banana wrote: ↑16 May 2021, 12:57pm
jo' bo wrote: ↑15 May 2021, 6:14pm
I've work3d
I've fell for this hand built by British craftsmen line before, only to realise belatedly that the highly skill british craftsmen were turning out a vastly inferior product to japanese robots.
That's what sent triumph meridian to the scrap heap of history, its seem Raleigh special products followed them , for very much the same reason that they ran out of gullible people
In what way is the frame better than say the 2010 Carrera vengeance frame I'm looking at now, it's the bases of my current " special product " build and its rather good and hand built by Taiwanese robots, with out a hang over
It's unlikely a Carrera frame is made by robots as I think that is aluminium and the robots you see in bicycle factories are normally used for steel frames. Most bicycle frames made in the world are still steel, i.e. sold in Asia, Africa, South America and entry level models elsewhere. Steel manufacturing has evolved to the point where steel frames can be quickly and safely made by robots but aluminium and carbon fibre are much more labour intensive with carbon fibre being very labour intensive. I saw somewhere that it takes 700x as long to make one carbon fibre frame compared to a one steel frame (robot). Hence why basic steel frames can be as low as $5 from a Chinese factory, aluminium about $20 but carbon fibre about $80 factory door price. Those prices are about 3 to 4 years old when I looked into prices at the factories.
I personally think there were fantastic frame builders in the UK who did incredible work with steel, they evolved their skills over time but sadly the UK became too expensive to manufacture in. I remember the Nissan factory in Sunderland being rated as one of the most efficient in the world. There is no reason to think that people in the UK can't make incredible quality products. It's really down to industries evolving over time but of course those industries are mostly gone now. Taiwan has lost a lot of its skill base as many factories have moved to mainland China, Cambodia or Vietnam. The world always wants cheaper products. Those people developing great skills in Cambodia could be out of a job in 10 years when the factory moves to somewhere cheaper.
I've worked at the Nissan factory in Sunderland, and its notable for its robots , so yes a quality british product made by japanese robots
Just about all the cycle metal frames from main manufactures and all made in the same mechanised factory and most of these ate aluminium coz one irs better and two is the most cost effective tO use robots on so cheap
I've no idea what back street cycles makers in India use, but almost definetly not hydro formed ali
Carbon is indeed some what more labour intensive, so more exspensive, well apart from all the cheap carbon coming out of the same factories as the exspensive carbon, I'm not yet convinced its actually the future of cycling, rather than a race specific component, I suspect its largely irelivant to most cyclists apart from bragging rights
I'm not sure where your plunging into the discusion.
My point is that mass produced ali in mechanised factories is an exceptionally good material for cycles frames, the build quality on even budget bikes is exceptional
I belive its better than hand built steel, it's certainly no worse on any objective measure .
Subjective however is a different matter and people can do what they want as long as they dont tell me I'm wrong based on their subjectivity
I don't need to have worked at Nissan Sunderland to know a huge amount of the assembly is done by people not just robots this is clear to see in any image of the factory floor.
Halfords buy from different factories for different price points, different brands and may change by year. Carrera bikes have been made all over Asia in recent times. Cambodia, Vietnam, Taiwan, mainland China and possibly others. Some of the ebikes have been assembled in Europe (Czech Republic) from parts from Asia. Apollo bikes tend use cheaper factories Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc and Boardman may have more frames actually from Taiwan. I think the quality of the frames do vary as the processes each factory use may vary. I think fuji-ta phosphate dip their steel frames but not all factories do that. This can give long term rust protection. You get phosphate dipped frames on very cheap steel bikes from fuji-ta.
Any classic British, Italian, French high end steel frame is going to be a compromise as it will use butted tubes and those are more vulnerable to rust in the thin sections of the tubes. The more enjoyable a bike is to ride typically the more dangerous and short life its frames and forks are. However those classic steel frames are still beautifully manufactured by very skilled individuals.
My motivation as a cyclist is always a strong bike as I'm a heavy rider the majority are motivated by lightness when it comes to their bikes it seems.