Cracked head tube

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David9694
Posts: 908
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Cracked head tube

Post by David9694 »

Here’s a curious case - how do you get a crack like this? It’s a mid ‘80s Record Ace. Running into something solid is the usual explanation...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373580999210
No apparent damage to the downtube
No apparent damage to the downtube
Spa Audax Ti Ultegra; Genesis Equilibrium 853; Raleigh Record Ace 1983; “Raleigh Competition”, “Raleigh Gran Sport 1982”; “Allegro Special”, Bob Jackson tourer, Ridley alu step-through with Swytch front wheel; gravel bike from an MB Dronfield 531 frame.
jo' bo
Posts: 121
Joined: 8 May 2021, 8:21pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by jo' bo »

David9694 wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:50pm Here’s a curious case - how do you get a crack like this? It’s a mid ‘80s Record Ace. Running into something solid is the usual explanation...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373580999210

F85933E0-59A6-45EC-91C5-03082AFF9E90.jpeg
Metal or more like braze fatigue

Take it to a,welding shop and get it fixed
PT1029
Posts: 1744
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 9:20pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by PT1029 »

Yes, braze/heat failure or metal fatigue or some such. I think it is a case of the National trust house approach.
If you offer it to me for free, I'll take so long as it comes with a whole load of cash to contribute to the cost of repair....
Seriously not worth it for the frame, unless someone can cheaply weld it up, but the 531 was never made for welding, only brazing.
Worth putting in an offer for the forks of course, then you save on the postage.
In terms of repair, a frambuilder needs to put a new head tube in the lugs. Argos would be £200 excluding paint.
Welding up is fine (531 excepted, as above) so long as you can keep the lugs in line for the headset....
Once a customer compalined to my then boss about "my attitude" as I was only willing/able to adjust his headset "as best as possible" - the head tube had broken and then been welded up, the top lug/H-S race did not line up with the bottom lug/H-S race, plus for good measure the folk column was bent somewhere with in the head tube.
These days I would not do the adjustment at all (not that it ever could be!).
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531colin
Posts: 16083
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by 531colin »

Not worth worrying about.
The frame itself is pretty average; just the 3 main tubes 531, plain gauge.
Head tube is un-specified (ie cheap) tubing; an artisan framebuilder would have filed the lugs thinner at the ends to reduce the stress-raiser, and probably used a better lugset in the first place.
On the other hand, if you were looking for excitement, you could probably sleeve it internally and silver solder it up; the crack only goes part way round. As above, though, the head tube needs to be straight(ish) when finished.
David9694
Posts: 908
Joined: 10 Feb 2018, 8:42am

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by David9694 »

jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:54pm
David9694 wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:50pm Here’s a curious case - how do you get a crack like this? It’s a mid ‘80s Record Ace. Running into something solid is the usual explanation...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373580999210

F85933E0-59A6-45EC-91C5-03082AFF9E90.jpeg
Metal or more like braze fatigue

Take it to a,welding shop and get it fixed
Not heard of braze fatigue (genuinely). Is it a defect as such? I guess in theory the head tube can be replaced, but it’s hardly economic particularly when the drop outs appear no longer to be 531.

I wouldn’t mind taking the forks off his hands if they’ve not been crashed.
Spa Audax Ti Ultegra; Genesis Equilibrium 853; Raleigh Record Ace 1983; “Raleigh Competition”, “Raleigh Gran Sport 1982”; “Allegro Special”, Bob Jackson tourer, Ridley alu step-through with Swytch front wheel; gravel bike from an MB Dronfield 531 frame.
ClappedOut
Posts: 585
Joined: 30 May 2020, 12:43am

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by ClappedOut »

Looks like fatigue
9494arnold
Posts: 1208
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 3:13pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by 9494arnold »

Overheated on build if it hasn't been crashed I would guess.
Plus might have been run with Headset loose which over time will kill the head tube ( I know it's a bike but not an uncommon problem on a trike where all the braking is generally on the front fork )
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by fastpedaller »

jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:54pm
David9694 wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:50pm Here’s a curious case - how do you get a crack like this? It’s a mid ‘80s Record Ace. Running into something solid is the usual explanation...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373580999210

F85933E0-59A6-45EC-91C5-03082AFF9E90.jpeg
Metal or more like braze fatigue

Take it to a,welding shop and get it fixed
^^^^ I'm unsure if the above is serious comment or meant to be a joke - It's poor advice! Do not do this ^^^^^^^
jo' bo
Posts: 121
Joined: 8 May 2021, 8:21pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by jo' bo »

fastpedaller wrote: 16 May 2021, 8:26pm
jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:54pm
David9694 wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:50pm Here’s a curious case - how do you get a crack like this? It’s a mid ‘80s Record Ace. Running into something solid is the usual explanation...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373580999210

F85933E0-59A6-45EC-91C5-03082AFF9E90.jpeg
Metal or more like braze fatigue

Take it to a,welding shop and get it fixed
^^^^ I'm unsure if the above is serious comment or meant to be a joke - It's poor advice! Do not do this ^^^^^^^
Taking it to an expert metal fabrication repair facility and getting it fixed is bad advice, ?

Ok what's good advice, throw it away presumably, or use it as wall art?
AndyA
Posts: 526
Joined: 21 Mar 2009, 9:16pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by AndyA »

jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 8:45pm
fastpedaller wrote: 16 May 2021, 8:26pm
jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 4:54pm

Metal or more like braze fatigue

Take it to a,welding shop and get it fixed
^^^^ I'm unsure if the above is serious comment or meant to be a joke - It's poor advice! Do not do this ^^^^^^^
Taking it to an expert metal fabrication repair facility and getting it fixed is bad advice, ?

Ok what's good advice, throw it away presumably, or use it as wall art?
Here are three reasons why this is bad advice.

1) 531 often cracks after welding
2) Welding next to a brazed joint results in a very messy weld because the zinc comes out of alloy with the brass and vaporises. Porous, dirty weld is the result and likely to crack again
3) The tube will distort from welding, bringing the headset out of allignment

If you wanted to save the frame, take it to a reputable framebuilder who will replace the headtube. Anything less is a bodge
jo' bo
Posts: 121
Joined: 8 May 2021, 8:21pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by jo' bo »

AndyA wrote: 16 May 2021, 9:57pm
jo' bo wrote: 16 May 2021, 8:45pm
fastpedaller wrote: 16 May 2021, 8:26pm

^^^^ I'm unsure if the above is serious comment or meant to be a joke - It's poor advice! Do not do this ^^^^^^^
Taking it to an expert metal fabrication repair facility and getting it fixed is bad advice, ?

Ok what's good advice, throw it away presumably, or use it as wall art?
Here are three reasons why this is bad advice.

1) 531 often cracks after welding
2) Welding next to a brazed joint results in a very messy weld because the zinc comes out of alloy with the brass and vaporises. Porous, dirty weld is the result and likely to crack again
3) The tube will distort from welding, bringing the headset out of allignment

If you wanted to save the frame, take it to a reputable framebuilder who will replace the headtube. Anything less is a bodge
Well that's all very interesting, but I didnt say get it welded did I, I said take it to a,welder who would of course have brazing facilities

As a general rule people who can repair two ton hundred mile an hour vehicles can be trusted to repair an old push bike frame

It really not that complicated , specialist frame builder my $$$$, I'd do it with my aldi arc welder
AndyA
Posts: 526
Joined: 21 Mar 2009, 9:16pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by AndyA »

Actually, repairing cars is miles easier than properly fixing bicycle frames. I know, I've done both! Doing this job properly, to get a good as new result, requires a set of skills at a level you're unlikely to get at a "welding shop"
jo' bo
Posts: 121
Joined: 8 May 2021, 8:21pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by jo' bo »

AndyA wrote: 16 May 2021, 10:34pm Actually, repairing cars is miles easier than properly fixing bicycle frames. I know, I've done both! Doing this job properly, to get a good as new result, requires a set of skills at a level you're unlikely to get at a "welding shop"
Who said as good as new? You just want to the tube to not fall off,

And no it really isnt more difficult, it's an old push bike frame, not a flipping Ferrari
jo' bo
Posts: 121
Joined: 8 May 2021, 8:21pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by jo' bo »

AndyA wrote: 16 May 2021, 10:34pm Actually, repairing cars is miles easier than properly fixing bicycle frames. I know, I've done both! Doing this job properly, to get a good as new result, requires a set of skills at a level you're unlikely to get at a "welding shop"
Who said as good as new? You just want to the tube to not fall off,

And no it really isnt more difficult, it's an old push bike frame, not a flipping Ferrari
iandusud
Posts: 1577
Joined: 26 Mar 2018, 1:35pm

Re: Cracked head tube

Post by iandusud »

531colin wrote: 16 May 2021, 5:28pm Not worth worrying about.
The frame itself is pretty average; just the 3 main tubes 531, plain gauge.
Head tube is un-specified (ie cheap) tubing; an artisan framebuilder would have filed the lugs thinner at the ends to reduce the stress-raiser, and probably used a better lugset in the first place.
On the other hand, if you were looking for excitement, you could probably sleeve it internally and silver solder it up; the crack only goes part way round. As above, though, the head tube needs to be straight(ish) when finished.
Whilst I would agree that it's probably not worth repairing I'm pretty sure that those Record Aces were built with a full 531C tube set. I had the opportunity to buy a lot of them from Raleigh at a good price when they cleared them out, selling them on at £200 if I remember correctly.
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