Bike designs which should be binned

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Mike Sales »

rfryer wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 7:50am
Mike Sales wrote: 17 Jun 2021, 3:01pm
freeflow wrote: 17 Jun 2021, 2:48pm Not a design but an activity that has greatly distorted what a bicycle should be, namely, racing.
You don't have to race. It is not compulsory. I don't.
And you are free to ride whatever bike you like.
Unless nobody makes that ideal bike, because bike design and production has been constrained by the demands of racing.
I build my own.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
tatanab
Posts: 5033
Joined: 8 Feb 2007, 12:37pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by tatanab »

rfryer wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 7:50am
Mike Sales wrote: 17 Jun 2021, 3:01pm
freeflow wrote: 17 Jun 2021, 2:48pm Not a design but an activity that has greatly distorted what a bicycle should be, namely, racing.
You don't have to race. It is not compulsory. I don't.
And you are free to ride whatever bike you like.
Unless nobody makes that ideal bike, because bike design and production has been constrained by the demands of racing.
People race all sorts of machines. A downhill racing MTB is nothing like a time trial bike, so the idea that design is restricted by racing seems odd, unless of course you are talking about recumbents.

The answer is to visit a frame builder to get a frame made to your specification and then assemble it with components of your choice. This is what almost all of us did things in the days before the tremendous choice of machines in any bike shop of the last 30 years or more. None of my 7 machines are off the peg, all being built with parts that suit my taste. This is the nice thing about cycling, you can easily build something to suit and absolutely unique versus trying the same thing with other means of transport. What is more, building it is fun.

What would I ban? Day time lights.
Oldjohnw
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Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Oldjohnw »

tatanab wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 8:26am
rfryer wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 7:50am
Mike Sales wrote: 17 Jun 2021, 3:01pm
You don't have to race. It is not compulsory. I don't.
And you are free to ride whatever bike you like.
Unless nobody makes that ideal bike, because bike design and production has been constrained by the demands of racing.
The answer is to visit a frame builder to get a frame made to your specification and then assemble it with components of your choice. This is what almost all of us did things in the days before the tremendous choice of machines in any bike shop of the last 30 years or more. None of my 7 machines are off the peg, all being built with parts that suit my taste. This is the nice thing about cycling, you can easily build something to suit and absolutely unique versus ….
Almost all of us?
John
tatanab
Posts: 5033
Joined: 8 Feb 2007, 12:37pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by tatanab »

Oldjohnw wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 8:29amAlmost all of us?
I admit, I was thinking of club riders and not considering utility riders who surely were/are a larger market and bought ready made machines off the peg.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Mike Sales »

tatanab wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 8:38am
Oldjohnw wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 8:29amAlmost all of us?
I admit, I was thinking of club riders and not considering utility riders who surely were/are a larger market and bought ready made machines off the peg.
The default bike at the cheap end of the market has for years been the mountain bike type.
A naive new buyer is most likely to come out of the shop with a heavy bike, meant to look as if it is capable of handling any surface, probably with imitation suspension. Here in the Fens I see such bikes mostly, with gearing which could handle any hill.
Imitation road racing bikes are much scarcer.
I suppose you could say that the design of such bikes has been constrained by the demands of mountain bike racing.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
MartinC
Posts: 2127
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by MartinC »

Mike Sales wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 7:52am ......I build my own.
So do I buy I'm constrained by the the components manufacturers choose to market.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Mike Sales »

MartinC wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 12:10pm
Mike Sales wrote: 18 Jun 2021, 7:52am ......I build my own.
So do I buy I'm constrained by the the components manufacturers choose to market.
I pick and mix to get what I want.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
roger
Posts: 176
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 2:14pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by roger »

10,11,and12 sprockets except for Moultons, Bromptons etc. Realise the cost may increase with a reduced manufacturing volume, but it has not increased with their introduction.
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Mick F
Spambuster
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Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Mick F »

9t 10t and 11t sprockets are an abomination and should be banned for all bikes.
If you want higher gears, use a bigger chainwheel.

This makes complete sense due to mechanical efficiency. The smaller the sprocket, the more friction produced, plus small sprockets wear out.

I had an 11t on Moulton and I got through three of them even though the rest of the cassette was fine. Good job 11t only cost a few quid each. That cassette was 11-28 10sp, and now I'm using 12-30 10sp .................... much better.
Mick F. Cornwall
gxaustin
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Joined: 23 Sep 2015, 12:07pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by gxaustin »

No, but they generally seem to have more issues than threaded and, given the typically expensive tools required to fit and remove (unless you like bodging) are very end user unfriendly as well.
Why do so many people exaggerate? You can remove the bearing shells with a drift (unless you are really cack handed) and I made a bearing press out of two bits of plywood, two penny washers and a scrap of threaded rod. These tools cost me nothing (sorry Park Tool).
OK some people are really cack handed but they probably get their LBS to service their bikes.
You actually do need a special tool for threaded BBs but funnily enough nobody moans about that.
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Jamesh »

gxaustin wrote: 19 Jun 2021, 10:08pm
No, but they generally seem to have more issues than threaded and, given the typically expensive tools required to fit and remove (unless you like bodging) are very end user unfriendly as well.
Why do so many people exaggerate? You can remove the bearing shells with a drift (unless you are really cack handed) and I made a bearing press out of two bits of plywood, two penny washers and a scrap of threaded rod. These tools cost me nothing (sorry Park Tool).
OK some people are really cack handed but they probably get their LBS to service their bikes.
You actually do need a special tool for threaded BBs but funnily enough nobody moans about that.
Agreed I have two bikes with bb30 and no long term problems! One on my Cannondale squeaked as I lubed it a bit enthusiastically before my lejog!

Surely a bigger bearing has to be theoretically longer lasting than a smaller one too???

Cheers James
JohnW
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Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by JohnW »

Any componentry that is only compatible within it's own group-set.
cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by cycle tramp »

JohnW wrote: 19 Jun 2021, 11:42pm Any componentry that is only compatible within it's own group-set.
Depending upon any (perceived) compromises that one is prepared to make.
If you separate the gear shifters from brake levers, so that these functions are operated separately, then you have the freedom to run a braking system from a completely different groupset or even a completely different manufacturer to that of your gear system.
(Indeed if you knew the amount of cable pull and mechanical advantage that your brakes needed to work, provided these two requirements were matched you could also run your brake levers from a completely different group set or manufacturer to that of your breaking mechanism).

By learning to change gear using friction gear levers and installing them rather than indexed shifters, gives you the opportunity to use a completely different chainset to that of the cassette or freewheel. The only requirement is that the width of the chain, chainring(s) and cassette/freewheel are the same.
You could also run a front deraileur of a different manufacturer or groupset to that of the chainset - providing that the shifting plates of the front deraileur match the radius of the chainrings which are used.
And you could run a rear deraileur of a different groupset or manufacturer provided that the deraileur had the capacity to clear the cassette/freewheel sprockets and had the capacity to handle the differential in teeth between the chainset and cassette or freewheel.

The idea that you can only match components from the same groupset is something that I suspect shimano is rather anxious to keep us hypnotised with, but it doesn't make it true. But separating the gear shifter and braking controls , and then perhaps even returning to friction gear shifters offers the rider a choice of a munch better range of equipment (or allows the rider to choose much more appropriate equipment).
Last edited by cycle tramp on 20 Jun 2021, 12:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by cycle tramp »

An example of this mix and match is my current transmission- a second hand stronglight chainring turns a KMC chain, which in turn, turns an IRD freewheel. Gears are selected via a second hand short shimano sora rear deraileur operated by a very old suntour friction thumb shifter.
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geomannie
Posts: 1093
Joined: 13 May 2009, 6:07pm

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by geomannie »

cycle tramp wrote: 20 Jun 2021, 12:08pm
JohnW wrote: 19 Jun 2021, 11:42pm Any componentry that is only compatible within it's own group-set.
Depending upon any (perceived) compromises that one is prepared to make.
If you separate the gear shifters from brake levers, so that these functions are operated separately, then you have the freedom to run a braking system from a completely different groupset or even a completely different manufacturer to that of your gear system.
(Indeed if you knew the amount of cable pull and mechanical advantage that your brakes needed to work, provided these two requirements were matched you could also run your brake levers from a completely different group set or manufacturer to that of your breaking mechanism).

By learning to change gear using friction gear levers and installing them rather than indexed shifters, gives you the opportunity to use a completely different chainset to that of the cassette or freewheel. The only requirement is that the width of the chain, chainring(s) and cassette/freewheel are the same.
You could also run a front deraileur of a different manufacturer or groupset to that of the chainset - providing that the shifting plates of the front deraileur match the radius of the chainrings which are used.
And you could run a rear deraileur of a different groupset or manufacturer provided that the deraileur had the capacity to clear the cassette/freewheel sprockets and had the capacity to handle the differential in teeth between the chainset and cassette or freewheel.

The idea that you can only match components from the same groupset is something that I suspect shimano is rather anxious to keep us hypnotised with, but it doesn't make it true. But separating the gear shifter and braking controls , and then perhaps even returning to friction gear shifters offers the rider a choice of a munch better range of equipment (or allows the rider to choose much more appropriate equipment).
Quite. Thanks to running friction I recently changed my gravel bike from a 9 speed 11-30 to a 10 speed 11-34 by pulling a part used 10 speed chain & cassette from my parts bin. Try doing that on on indexed system.
geomannie
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