Bike designs which should be binned

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ElCani
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Joined: 5 Mar 2015, 11:24am

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by ElCani »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:05pm Put this the other way round. What is the point of fitting a bike with quick release hubs if their operation is to be hampered? Why not fit track nuts?


Because track nuts require a spanner to use and QRs don’t require anything.
thirdcrank
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by thirdcrank »

Wing nuts? A bike with a hub gear will have track nuts at the back anyway
MartinC
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Location: Bredon

Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by MartinC »

ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:09pm ........Because track nuts require a spanner to use and QRs don’t require anything.
Disagree. QR's require training and expertise. Lawyers Lips are to make this irrelevant solely to the manufacturers so that they're available to those customers without. Any rational discussion beyond this is doomed to failure.
thirdcrank
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by thirdcrank »

Reflect on why people have problems with q/r. I suspect it's because they assume the lever is some sort of wing nut. This will mean that they will struggle and probably fail to remove the wheel if they first encounter one already fastened. If they try to tighten the wheel only by screwing it closed using the lever like a wing nut, then they will have a loose wheel and the lips may stop it falling out. Either way, to use a q/r hub properly, you need to know how to fasten/ unfasten it.
ElCani
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by ElCani »

MartinC wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:24pm
ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:09pm ........Because track nuts require a spanner to use and QRs don’t require anything.
Disagree. QR's require training and expertise. Lawyers Lips are to make this irrelevant solely to the manufacturers so that they're available to those customers without. Any rational discussion beyond this is doomed to failure.
Should have been more clear, I meant QRs require no additional tools. Very little in life doesn’t require some level of training and expertise. Track nuts definitely do.

FWIW, I’m not saying QRs are a better solution than track nuts, or any other method, for most bikes, but the idea that all their advantages are negated by the existence of lawyer lips is clearly not the case. Lawyer lips or not, QRs allow wheels to be taken on and off without the need for additional tools.
mattheus
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by mattheus »

rogerzilla wrote: 26 May 2021, 12:52pm
Mick F wrote: 26 May 2021, 11:24am As for the "lawyer's lips", they are standard on the Moulton TSR (don't know about other Moultons) but I left no time in filing mine off even though the bike was under warranty at the time.
I've had a couple of pairs of new build forks from Argos and they certainly don't put such abominations on their dropouts.
I did genuinely think you were buying bikes on click-n-collect with Nectar vouchers there for a minute. It all made sense ...
ElCani
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by ElCani »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:12pm Wing nuts? A bike with a hub gear will have track nuts at the back anyway
No doubt these would be more intuitive for the average person, and I agree that many incorrectly fastened QRs are the result of people using them like wingnuts.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Bmblbzzz »

MartinC wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:24pm
ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:09pm ........Because track nuts require a spanner to use and QRs don’t require anything.
Disagree. QR's require training and expertise. Lawyers Lips are to make this irrelevant solely to the manufacturers so that they're available to those customers without. Any rational discussion beyond this is doomed to failure.
They also protect subsequent users of that bike. I remember pointing out to someone on one ride that his rear QR was flipped to "open" but had been would tight like a nut. Turned out he'd leant the bike to his teenage son the previous day.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Bmblbzzz »

ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 12:22pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 26 May 2021, 11:50am
ElCani wrote: 25 May 2021, 9:51pm

That’s not true. Here in Sweden coaster-braked bikes all have their front brake lever on the LH side. As indeed do all bikes. I assume the same is true in all other countries where the standard way is to have the front brake on the LH side.
Yeah, I knew there'd be variation, so I didn't say "all countries". Didn't realize it'd be Sweden (I wonder if it's related to H Day: they just switched everything over?) I should think there'll also be variation over time and by manufacturer, particularly if we go back far enough. But there are countries that drive on the right where it's standard to have brakes set up front-left if they're both lever operated but front-right if there's only one lever.
Interesting, and… odd! Do you know which countries?
Eastern Europe IME. Fairly old bikes mind.
Jdsk
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:47pm
ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 12:22pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 26 May 2021, 11:50am Yeah, I knew there'd be variation, so I didn't say "all countries". Didn't realize it'd be Sweden (I wonder if it's related to H Day: they just switched everything over?) I should think there'll also be variation over time and by manufacturer, particularly if we go back far enough. But there are countries that drive on the right where it's standard to have brakes set up front-left if they're both lever operated but front-right if there's only one lever.
Interesting, and… odd! Do you know which countries?
Eastern Europe IME. Fairly old bikes mind.
Linked tabulation of countries above:
viewtopic.php?p=1609948#p1609948

Jonathan
pliptrot
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by pliptrot »

I spent a lot of time as a youth YHA'ing with my father. I look back at his perseverance with SA 5speed hubs with wonder - they were unreliable and constantly slipped. He spent good money after bad on new internals trying to get them to work. No wonder the company failed. Sadly - as has often been the case - it took the Japanese to show the way with hub gears.

Also looking at the past it's amazing how Campagnolo survived. The C-record rear derailleur inherited all the terrible performance of the preceding Campag mechs but added weight. Yet it was still used to win multiple Tours de France, a decade or so since the Japanese -err- showed with way with derailleur gears. There's a common theme here.......
thirdcrank
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by thirdcrank »

It's a little-known fact that Tullio Campagnolo changed his name to have the initials TC.

I think the original q/r hub can be attributed to him and some derailleur advances eg the parallelogram concept, although I'm not sure of the latter. Beyond that, his company seemed to concentrate on making largely traditional designs like freewheel hubs to the highest standards. Some Campag innovations were dead-end and would not have got beyond the drawing board without the cachet of the Campagnolo trade mark.

The Japanese moved out of the traditional eg reinventing the freehub and weren't averse to a bit of plagiarising. They rethought / tweaked brakes and then marketed everything to change every five minutes for marketing purposes
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:50pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 26 May 2021, 1:47pm
ElCani wrote: 26 May 2021, 12:22pm
Interesting, and… odd! Do you know which countries?
Eastern Europe IME. Fairly old bikes mind.
Linked tabulation of countries above:
viewtopic.php?p=1609948#p1609948

Jonathan
As far as I can see all those links are talking about bikes with two lever-operated brakes.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Bmblbzzz »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 May 2021, 2:30pm It's a little-known fact that Tullio Campagnolo changed his name to have the initials TC.

I think the original q/r hub can be attributed to him and some derailleur advances eg the parallelogram concept, although I'm not sure of the latter. Beyond that, his company seemed to concentrate on making largely traditional designs like freewheel hubs to the highest standards. Some Campag innovations were dead-end and would not have got beyond the drawing board without the cachet of the Campagnolo trade mark.

The Japanese moved out of the traditional eg reinventing the freehub and weren't averse to a bit of plagiarising. They rethought / tweaked brakes and then marketed everything to change every five minutes for marketing purposes
Shimano have had a few dead-ends too, for instance the 10mm chain pitch. And fair play to them, "A man who makes no mistakes" etc...
Jdsk
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Re: Bike designs which should be binned

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 26 May 2021, 2:41pmAs far as I can see all those links are talking about bikes with two lever-operated brakes.
Thanks for the correction.

I don't know the answer to what you actually asked.

Sorry.

Jonathan
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