Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

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slowster
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by slowster »

Jupestar wrote: 15 Jul 2021, 4:45pm I stuck clean pads in, and jigged up a 400mm straight compressionless cable run to the shifters, i couldn't ride it but a couldn't see much of an improvement on the stand - i could pull the wheel through by hand with the lever pulled right down.
Does that mean that you bypassed the normal brake housing you have used under the bar tape and the inline adjuster?

If so, then that is probably a fairly definitive acid test. The only thing which I expect that it would not eliminate as a cause is if the compressionless cable outers do not have clean cut ends, i.e. if either end is ragged/has wire strands protruding there will be compression at that point when the lever is pulled.

If not, and all your experimentation has involved the inline adjuster and normal brake outer under the bar tape, I would suspect them. A short length of ordinary brake outer will not compress much, but again if the ends of the cable outer are badly cut/ragged that might well be a factor.

Similarly the cable outers not being fully inserted into the levers might give exactly the braking problem you describe. I have experienced this when I have stupidly tried to move the levers down the bars slightly without undoing the bar tape: the tape prevents the cable outer moving, and so moving the lever downwards results in the outer no longer being properly inserted in the lever, with resulting poor braking performance. Hence now I always just tape the cables to the bars with a couple of sections of electrical tape to begin with. If I decide to move the levers up or down even just slightly, I usually find it is necessary to remove the electrical tape to allow the cable outers to be re-secured to the bars. Only after riding the bike for some time and when I am completely satisfied with the position of the levers and braking, do I fit the handlebar tape.

Lastly I would also check the instructions for the lever, e.g. do they specify a particular route for the cable entering the lever or that a (particular sized) ferrule must be used on the end of the outer?
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warey4life
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by warey4life »

On my last build I decided on Avid BB5s with Tektro RL520 Brake Levers only. Shifters are 10speed SRAM TT500 bar ends. STI levers too expensive and I wasn't confident they'd work with with mechanical disc brakes.
Jupestar
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by Jupestar »

slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Does that mean that you bypassed the normal brake housing you have used under the bar tape and the inline adjuster?
Yes
slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm The only thing which I expect that it would not eliminate as a cause is if the compressionless cable outers do not have clean cut ends,
Clean as i can make and opened up the cut. I put a old cable in and cut on that as well to make it clean as possible.

slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Similarly the cable outers not being fully inserted into the levers might give exactly the braking problem you describe.
Checked this, but also the caliper arms does start to move immediately the brake lever starts to be pulled. and releases clean. I'm really thinking this is a compatabilty issue.
slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Only after riding the bike for some time and when I am completely satisfied with the position of the levers and braking, do I fit the handlebar tape.
I fit cheap/old handlebar tape for a few weeks. Normally something which has been on offer from Planet X. or ripped of an old bike. Also miminal electrical tape. I also often dial shifters and brake in with no tape/grips first. but leave enough to get it under the tape later.
slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Lastly I would also check the instructions for the lever,
They can go under the grips, infact the angle of the outer inserts to the STI's meaned it would be pretty tricky to fit any other way. But there are from a rim brake Groupset...
Jupestar
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by Jupestar »

warey4life wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 1:31pm On my last build I decided on Avid BB5s with Tektro RL520 Brake Levers only. Shifters are 10speed SRAM TT500 bar ends. STI levers too expensive and I wasn't confident they'd work with with mechanical disc brakes.
I assume this worked? I have RL520, and TT500 on my turbo. no brakes attached though. I also had the BB5/RL520 on a Genesis Day One if i recall, worked fine. much better than i currently have on the SRAM Red and Spyres. Only issue i have on the RL520 is they are really narrow on the hoods so i've fattened out with a load of handlebar tape.

Barend shifters is an option, i like them - its just i have the groupset basically given to me, and it rides really nice. Even though i can't really stop on it! :D
slowster
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by slowster »

Jupestar wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 2:02pm
slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Similarly the cable outers not being fully inserted into the levers might give exactly the braking problem you describe.
Checked this, but also the caliper arms does start to move immediately the brake lever starts to be pulled. and releases clean. I'm really thinking this is a compatabilty issue.
I did not explain what I meant very well. If the cable outer is secured to the bars by handlebar tape or electrical tape, but is not fully inserted into the lever, then I would indeed expect that the caliper arms might move as soon as the lever starts to be pulled. However, during the rest of the lever stroke the increasing force/tension on the cable will potentially be enough to cause the cable outer to move under the tape, i.e. it will never be possible to achieve full braking force through the rest of the stroke (unless/until after the cable outer moves enough to fully seat itself in the lever).

Nevertheless, as you say, it seems to be a compatibility issue, so it will interesting to learn how you get on with the BB5s.

Regarding Tektro RL520 levers, they are linear pull levers for full sized V brakes and MTB pull disc calipers. BB7 and BB5 calipers are available in both road and MTB pull. I use MTB pull BB7s with both RL520 and flat bar levers. Braking with the RL520s is good, but with flat bar levers it is on a par with hydraulic brakes (flat bar bike also has a 180mm front disc, whereas the drop bar bike has 160mm).
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warey4life
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by warey4life »

Jupestar wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 2:08pm
warey4life wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 1:31pm On my last build I decided on Avid BB5s with Tektro RL520 Brake Levers only. Shifters are 10speed SRAM TT500 bar ends. STI levers too expensive and I wasn't confident they'd work with with mechanical disc brakes.
I assume this worked? I have RL520, and TT500 on my turbo. no brakes attached though. I also had the BB5/RL520 on a Genesis Day One if i recall, worked fine. much better than i currently have on the SRAM Red and Spyres. Only issue i have on the RL520 is they are really narrow on the hoods so i've fattened out with a load of handlebar tape.

Barend shifters is an option, i like them - its just i have the groupset basically given to me, and it rides really nice. Even though i can't really stop on it! :D
Yes works really well with RL529s. Didn't at first though, before I bought the RL520s I tried Diacompe 287v levers which were awful, couldnt get enough pull with them and I had cable friction whether I used or didn't use the stupid noodles that came with them.
biketips666
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by biketips666 »

slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 2:48pm
Jupestar wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 2:02pm
slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 12:37pm Similarly the cable outers not being fully inserted into the levers might give exactly the braking problem you describe.
Checked this, but also the caliper arms does start to move immediately the brake lever starts to be pulled. and releases clean. I'm really thinking this is a compatabilty issue.
I did not explain what I meant very well. If the cable outer is secured to the bars by handlebar tape or electrical tape, but is not fully inserted into the lever, then I would indeed expect that the caliper arms might move as soon as the lever starts to be pulled. However, during the rest of the lever stroke the increasing force/tension on the cable will potentially be enough to cause the cable outer to move under the tape, i.e. it will never be possible to achieve full braking force through the rest of the stroke (unless/until after the cable outer moves enough to fully seat itself in the lever).
Yes, exactly that.

It is important not to assume that just because the caliper starts to move as soon as the lever is pulled that there isn't any "give" in the system. At the start of the stroke there's no resistance at the caliper - it's moving against thin air. It's only when it starts meet resistance, and more force is exerted at the lever that any give in the system will come in to play, such as cable outer which isn't fully seated against a cable stop (of some sort).
mcshroom
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by mcshroom »

slowster wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 2:48pm Regarding Tektro RL520 levers, they are linear pull levers for full sized V brakes and MTB pull disc calipers. BB7 and BB5 calipers are available in both road and MTB pull. I use MTB pull BB7s with both RL520 and flat bar levers. Braking with the RL520s is good, but with flat bar levers it is on a par with hydraulic brakes (flat bar bike also has a 180mm front disc, whereas the drop bar bike has 160mm).
I've only used them with v-brakes, but I don't think RL520s pull quite as much cable as a flat bar lever. I find that I need to set the v-brakes on my commuter up more carefully with the 520s, than I used to before when it had a flat bar and alivio levers, even ignoring the lack of a barrel adjuster at the lever.

I'm sure someone (Brucey?) will have done the maths on the levers on here before.
Jupestar
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by Jupestar »

Finally back from Italy, and took 10 mins to switch the capliers over (Spyres off BB5's on). Straight swap, and the difference was huge. Feels like brakes. Not on a par with Hydro, or even some of the better rim brakes i've used. But brakes which I'm confident would stop me.

I just don't think the SRAM levers and the TRPs were a match on lever pull. this feels much better already - and not even properly set up yet!
biketips666
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by biketips666 »

Jupestar wrote: 6 Sep 2021, 11:54am Finally back from Italy, and took 10 mins to switch the capliers over (Spyres off BB5's on). Straight swap, and the difference was huge. Feels like brakes. Not on a par with Hydro, or even some of the better rim brakes i've used. But brakes which I'm confident would stop me.

I just don't think the SRAM levers and the TRPs were a match on lever pull. this feels much better already - and not even properly set up yet!
That's great. If the BB5s feel like a step up, then it might be worth splashing out on a pair of BB7s, now that you've identified lever-caliper mismatch as the problem (probably).
Jupestar
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Re: Road Shifters and Mech Disc Brake

Post by Jupestar »

biketips666 wrote: 6 Sep 2021, 5:40pm
That's great. If the BB5s feel like a step up, then it might be worth splashing out on a pair of BB7s, now that you've identified lever-caliper mismatch as the problem (probably).
My hestitancy was just the price, and that fact that if i was going down that route i'd want the black ones, and they are £80 each if you can find them. or 60ish for the matt silver ones.

Careful scouring the market and, i've ended up with new unused BB7's (black ones) discarded from a new bike before being ridden. and they are a step up - although the BB5;s were fine and would have been better still with new pads. the 7's grab more, and were really easy to get right. Brakes are decent, still not close to the TRP Hylex on my commuter, but still very very decent brakes i'd be happy to ride down Ventoux on.

Was it worth it? - well it was a nice ride for the 2 hours flat route i got out on it yesterday morning before the kids took over, and i might have managed an extra 1.5km than i can do on my SS in the same time. But honestly i'll probably hardly get to use it. The venn diagram of no kids, no work, not needed sleep, and dry london weather is a pretty small.
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