Seized hub nuts/cones

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

fausto99 wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 8:48am
doffcocker wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 6:11pm Bit of a development today, I've found that there is no play at all in the wheel when the cone bolts/nuts are tightened to such an extent that the wheel doesn't spin freely.
If you have the time, this is a great way to learn and build up experience. Very slowly back off from solid, in very small steps. Does it ever feel smooth? Does it just become rough and then loose? Can you feel the cup track pits?

+1 on Halford axle kits. They are rubbish. I once used one on my son's bike rear axle. It bent after one bunny hop by one of his mates who used the bike when he wasn't looking :evil: :lol:
Cheers. I already feel like I've learnt an awful lot over the weekend. I managed to tune it last night so that the wheel just about spins freely without grinding, and without any play at all. I know there's all sorts of other bits to consider, the bearings are obviously worn, I need to examine the tracks again, nearly everything down there needs replacing and greasing with somet proper, but to begin with I had no concept whatsoever of what role the bearings even play so for now I'm just pleased to be starting to understand what's actually going on down there.

But after learning that the rear wheel can suddenly freeze if it's not spot on, I've already had a few nightmares so I'm not going to rest until it is.
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

Jupestar wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 10:48pm What hub is it?

When you say QR skewer is stiff what exactly do you mean? Hard to do up? Hard to get through the axle?
I really can't see any writing at all on the hub, I can only assume that as everything else I've touched on the bike has been Shimano (shifters, cassette, etc) it could be a Shimano and it is a freewheel.

The QR is stiff in all senses, hard to get through the axle, hard to both do up and release.
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by slowster »

Did you manage to undo the seized non-drive side locknut and cone?

If not, how have you been able to re-assemble and adjust the axle? (The spanner flats on the drive-side cone are usually not readily accessible once the axle is assembled, because the body of the freewheel or freehub is in the way.)

If you did not manage to undo the seized non-drive side locknut and cone, and consequently have been adjusting the axle and bearing play without being able properly to tighten the drive side locknut and drive side cone against each other, it is likely that the drive side cone will not be tight enough to hold it securely in place against the locknut. If that is the case, as you ride the cone is likely to self-tighten on the axle thread and eventually crush the bearings. Once that happens, the damaged bearings can destroy the bearing surface of the cup, and write off the hub.
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

I didn't manage to undo the seized bolts. It's hard to detail exactly how I have managed to piece it back together, I just know that everything from the drive side became loose during all my efforts to loosen those from the non-drive side, and once they were off, I have managed to put everything back how it was in the way that the video shows.

In any case, I want to replace the whole lot (minus the hub if possible) asap, I'm just trying to work out exactly what I should buy.

I can't find the hub model details anywhere so your previous suggesting about SJS is something I'm gonna be struggling with.

I understand SJS are pretty reliable in terms of quality, so I'm trusting that I will be able to buy an axle set from them based purely on my axle measurements. I'm happy to buy the pieces individually even if it works out more expensive.
alexnharvey
Posts: 1923
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:39am

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by alexnharvey »

It does not look like a Shimano hub to me. I'd guess quando, joytech or similar Taiwanese hub. It's a frequent substitution to use alternative wheels even if much of the bike's equipment is shimano.

I still think you're pursuing a fool's errand replacing axle parts if the hub cup is rough, especially so when you cannot identify the hub so as to find the appropriate parts. It seems very likely that you'll buy random parts that either don't fit at all or are not a very good match to the hub.

You might well be able to buy a good wheel for not very much money, quite possibly better than the one that came with the bike. Then you can footer around with the wrecked hub to your heart's content
Jupestar
Posts: 920
Joined: 29 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by Jupestar »

doffcocker wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 10:08am
I really can't see any writing at all on the hub, I can only assume that as everything else I've touched on the bike has been Shimano (shifters, cassette, etc) it could be a Shimano and it is a freewheel.
Probably not Shimano - they are normally clearly marked IME. I would guess something like Joytech, Formula or Quando. Still repairable but you won't just be able to find the parts as easy and will need to measure up everything. Check the cones in the hub. If they are shot, its probably not worth the bother.
doffcocker wrote: 19 Jul 2021, 10:08am The QR is stiff in all senses, hard to get through the axle, hard to both do up and release.
Not getting through the axle, could be a bent axle, bent QR or both. Not sure why it would be hard to do up /release, unless it just too tight. Presumably when its not in the wheel the lever moves freely?

Hard to know exactly what is going on, but given what you said i would be thinking..

1) Bent Axl. possibly bent on the cassette side, maybe inboard bearings in the hub, this would degrade the bearing in the cassette side
2) the stuck nut, was never supposed to come off, it was in the correct position for the axle. and the axle can be removed without taking it off.

More photos would help, but check the cones and check if the axle is bent.
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

Cheers.

I know this perhaps wasn't a good idea but I took the bike out yesterday - as I say with everything back in one piece the wheel feels as secure as it ever has although I'm under no illusions that work doesn't need doing asap.

In the end I did roughly 30 miles and it seemed absolutely fine except for a niggling suspicion that there is slightly more resistance on the wheel in question than there was previously. On the rack, it does seem to spin OK, but it's really difficult to say if it's moving as freely as it ever has, I'm not sure how exactly I would measure that. But if it weren't spinning as well as it could, I guess that could point to any number of the factors people have mentioned previously, i.e. condition of bearings, cups, ball race area, even a knackered hub? Not to mention the axle and QR, but on visual inspection they both seem fine and yes it is only once inside the wheel that the QR lever doesn't move freely.

Will upload more pictures soon as I've got a minute to take everything apart and get my hands mucky again - so much for working from home. :D
colin54
Posts: 2529
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 4:34pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by colin54 »

What make and model bike is it ?
you might get a clue on the hub type or a suitable replacement wheel size from the original specification, if it's on-line somewhere.
Nu-Fogey
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

colin54 wrote: 21 Jul 2021, 11:12am What make and model bike is it ?
you might get a clue on the hub type or a suitable replacement wheel size from the original specification, if it's on-line somewhere.
It's an Argos model that has been discontinued and so I've never yet managed to find a decent enough spec to help me with all the jobs that have needed doing on it.

This ebay listing is as detailed as I've found yet:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352774153147
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

Hi all,

As I'm starting to lose patience with this process, I'm entertaining the idea of a new hub or wheel.

I was wondering if anybody might have any solid recommendations based on my bike spec for wheels and or/hubs from SJS.

Cheers.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by Jdsk »

I suggest:

1 Taking it apart and looking at the tracks where the ball bearings run.

2 Posting some photos of the axle and nuts so that we can see what state they're in.

But if you don't want to do that then how about emailing SJS Cycles? They're very helpful and respond quickly.

Jonathan
MikeF
Posts: 4339
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by MikeF »

Cone adjustment is a critical adjustment. Please buy suitable spanners before you do anything.
You can buy proper cone spanners quite cheaply, and a ring spanner is suitable for use on the lock nut.

The cones should be adjusted so that when the wheel is fitted to the bike there isn't any free play but they are loose enough so that when the wheel is spun gently and allowed to come to rest of its own accord the valve is at the bottom. It will oscillate just before it comes to a complete rest. A minute fraction too loose is better than too tight in my view.

I would check the cone adjustment even on a new bike or wheel. There isn't any guarantee it's correct.
Last edited by MikeF on 24 Jul 2021, 8:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
User avatar
willcee
Posts: 1438
Joined: 14 Aug 2008, 11:30pm
Location: castleroe,co.derryUlster

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by willcee »

INteresting dilemma , my experience would indicate someone fairly ham fisted was there before you.. in my view you're never going to have the ability ... indeed would anyone, to repair a pigs ear to silk purse territory.. start again with another hub or toss the wheel and look for a good used one.. will
doffcocker
Posts: 178
Joined: 31 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by doffcocker »

After having a thorough read finally of the Park Tool article on hub overhaul and adjustment, the reasons I'm finding it difficult to get a balance between eliminating any play in the rear wheel without causing it not to spin freely is my hub parts are a million miles off being the condition they need to be in.

(Yes, I was told so.)

On the hub side, the cup is now barely being held securely into place by the cone, and there seems to be a stray black circular rubber piece that presumably was once attached to the cup surface if that makes sense.

I have put in an enquiry with SJS about wheel replacements, in the mean time I'm just exploring Amazon for replacement freehubs as a possible option to explore. Exactly how specific to my bike specifications would I need do be looking? For example, I believe that I should be looking for an 8 speed cassette freehub, like this one in the link, but then it specifies Raleigh wheels which mine may or may not be.
drossall
Posts: 6115
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Seized hub nuts/cones

Post by drossall »

doffcocker wrote: 16 Jul 2021, 11:47amSo the number needed is potentially a judgement call?
The bearings sit in a circle. You need enough bearings to fill the circle with them all touching, but for a slight gap, up to half a bearing's width.

To answer your latest question, companies such as Raleigh are more assemblers than manufacturers. They buy in bits (including frames these days) and put them together. Occasionally, they may get parts stamped with their names. So the hubs are probably not Raleigh-branded, and certainly not really Raleigh anyway. A photo of the hub (as opposed to the internals) would help.

Nothing you have said would make me give up on the hub yet, unless I were choosing to upgrade to something better (probably not worth it on a fairly basic bike). A replacement may want similar adjustments in not too long. Bearing surfaces and bearings don't so much wear away as get pitted. In servicing, you clean them up and you can then see the pitting, which means that they need replacing. Axles don't wear at all, although they can bend, making correct adjustment impossible, or (occasionally) break.

You're unlikely to get correct adjustment without the cone spanners that others have mentioned. If you replace the damaged nut, and possibly the bearings on principle (easy and cheap to do, so why not?), there's no obvious reason why the wheel could not then be made serviceable.
Post Reply