New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

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nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Each mm in reduced dish gives a ~ 5% stronger wheel (on paper). I suspect the percentage is higher in real terms. By reducing the dish 4mm on a 7sp 135OLD 26” wheel you get a 90/100 spoke tension balance from 70/100. (3mm 85/100). Extracting a spacer from the DS and adding it and 2mm to the NDS requires minimal effort for a fairly substantial result.

That’s a desirable result for a touring bike carrying a load over a long distance.

This a 700C errand / day bike (though I quite like it and used to live just down the road from where it was built) with a bent rim (horrible to build with) and a 126OLD. One option is to pick up a decent used wheel and re-set the rear to 130OLD or even 128. I’d do that with my hands or use a cheap headset cup press - whack it out to about 150mm and see what that gets you. As mentioned strap up or clamp the stays before the bridges beforehand. I’m not surprised that wheel doesn’t want to know, the tensions must be in the region of 25/100. If going the re-build route I bet that STX hub would chop up to 126mm. Chop everything, the axle, quick release, rubber boot and do the 1.5mm DS spacer switch like before.
fastpedaller
Posts: 3433
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by fastpedaller »

If the rubber boot is 'chopped' it will be ruined.
Bice
Posts: 292
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

nsew wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 5:18pmThis a 700C errand / day bike (though I quite like it and used to live just down the road from where it was built) with a bent rim (horrible to build with) and a 126OLD. One option is to pick up a decent used wheel ...
This is probably realistic. For years I have commuted on this bike, but not this wheel: I have always used very old freewheel ones in the past.

And with no problems at all - well, except that the bearings are so insignificantly sealed, I have to regrease every year and sometimes rust comes out; or a spoke breaks and I can't get the freewheel off and have to ask the LBS to do it for me. I have an evil smelling 50-year-old 27 inch 5-speed with a bald Schwalbe tyre in the cellar at present that could be reused ...

Of course, these126mm freewheel wheels are very strong with minimal dish. It is just that the axles snap occasionally, although I have been very lucky with them and never experienced that.

Maybe a realistic middle course with this is: find a new 32H rim and just reuse the Tiagra hub that I have already got and build up a wheel with the spokes I have, using the decent ones on the drive side. That reuses the old stuff without throwing things away and will result in a half-decent wheel.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Bice wrote: 27 Jul 2021, 11:10pm Maybe a realistic middle course with this is: find a new 32H rim and just reuse the Tiagra hub that I have already got and build up a wheel with the spokes I have, using the decent ones on the drive side. That reuses the old stuff without throwing things away and will result in a half-decent wheel.
You’ll need to find a rim with the correct (or near enough) ERD for those spoke lengths AND re-space the Tiagra hub back to 130mm (or the wheel is too weak) AND re-space the dropouts (or jam it in there). As you’ve discovered, cheaper rims don’t always match the manufacturers ERD. Other options

Visit the bike workshops / markets (Brick Lane), scour eBay and hope to find a decent replacement. Problem is decent used bike stuff is in very short supply / heavy demand.

Build a complete new wheel using the 7sp STX hub. Cut 9mm off the axle and QR. SRAM are still producing decent 7sp cassettes and will likely continue to now Shimano have quit. Cut 5mm off and re-space the dropouts to 130mm - builds a 20% stronger wheel than 126mm.

Re-spacing the dropouts to 130mm can be done with a threaded bolt and two nuts. Stretch to 140mm and see where they rest, my guess is you’ll need to stretch to at least 150mm to rest at 130mm. Who knows with a triple stay mixte.
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

nsew wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:15pm Cut 5mm off and re-space the dropouts to 130mm - builds a 20% stronger wheel than 126mm.
Correction - dish is reduced by half the overall mm increase. So increasing the OLN by 4mm gives a 2mm reduction in dish. Each mm is ~ 5%, therefore a 10% stronger wheel.
Bice
Posts: 292
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

nsew wrote: 29 Jul 2021, 9:15pm Re-spacing the dropouts to 130mm can be done with a threaded bolt and two nuts. Stretch to 140mm and see where they rest, my guess is you’ll need to stretch to at least 150mm to rest at 130mm. Who knows with a triple stay mixte.
These mixte frame stays are quite rigid, owing to the weld at the brake bridge / mixte cross tubes meeting with the seat tube. And if I did bend having reinforced that weld, I would be panicking over the effect of it on those thin cross tubes. I would also worry about the triple welds on this frame's drop-outs (seen in the close-up pic). So I would prefer simply to force a wider hub in place.

I like these frames because they are step-through and look quite good, but they are also flexxy esp when loaded and the complicated welding around the drop-outs has always struck me as a weakness.

I would not risk taking this bike on a far-flung tour, and certainly not with the Marin sitting in the cellar. I think you are on the right lines that this is a day bike, really.

That said, the Claude Butler mixte frame I broke while commuting just cracked quite conventionally at the downtube by the headset:

Image

Another option in sorting the wheel is to under-dish a bit. There is quite a bit of space for that in this frame without it being noticeable. (In fact, I slightly under-dished the 10-speed wheel on the Campag Record hub: because the drive side spoke tensions were making me nervous. I cannot notice it on the Lazzaretti bike frame, which has absolutely minimal tolerances - so minimal, it will only take a 23mm tyre at the front.)

I guess the strongest 700mm wheels were 135mm OLN widths and seven speed hubs: so early 1990s for most people. Has it been downhill for touring bikes since then?
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
colin54
Posts: 2517
Joined: 24 Sep 2013, 4:34pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by colin54 »

I just noticed these wheels whilst looking for something else, Shimano Alivio FH-MC10, 7 speed cassette hub , 36 hole, 130mm over the locknuts, nutted rather than quick release, no bad thing on a city bike harder to steal (and easier to adjust the bearings I believe ).
mach1 700c-622x19 rim, takes 28-42mm tyre I'm not sure if this is too wide for your brakes/usage . £30 + a fiver delivery
https://www.bankruptbikeparts.co.uk/700 ... bbp2210688
Any good ?
Nu-Fogey
Bice
Posts: 292
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

Thanks for the link, but I have now sorted this with a set of old Alesa rims on Shimano FH-M550, Deore LX hubs, 36H, I bought for £30 on eBay. These date from 1990-92.

They came with 28mm Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres and quite a fresh Shimano seven-speed cassette, which I am using (pictured below).

Only the rear tyre and wheel show signs of recent use. It was on an exercise trainer. The front one still has some cobwebs.

Image

I was not that enthusiastic about the Schwalbe Marathon Pluses as I have found them in the past to be very hard, heavy, deadening and slippery. I came off on some diesel once and blame the fall to slippery Marathon Pluses).

But, actually, on the back only this one - which is a few years old and probably worn in a bit - feels really quite nice. (I doubt I will use one on the front, though.)

I replaced the cone on the drive side with a shorter one that I already had to get the cassette about 2mm closer to the lock nut. I moved a very thin spacer on the drive side to the NDS as well. This has given a really nice chainline. I also swapped out a larger spacer on the NDS for a smaller one, so I reckon the OLN width is about 128mm.

I removed the freehub and bathed it in parafin; dried and relubricated. Binned the ball bearings (which were still greased and good); kept the hub caps in situ (not sure why this is not emphasised as a good thing more often); and repacked with greaze.

I took it for a 25 miler yesterday and it is very nice: far smoother than the Tiagra, which has a seven-speed Sram cassette and spacers on a 8-speed hub (and might have been a bit loose, too).

I loosened all the spokes, which are nice quality, after spraying the necks and nipples with WD40, and re-trued. But I under-dished a bit as well.

The wheel seems to sit perfectly central in the frame and it should be pretty strong. Unfortunately there is a slight weave when the rim turns with the tyre on it - which certainly was not there on the truing stand after multiple de-stressing. It is minor, but annoying.

All in all, I am pleased with this wheel, even though it comes in an unappealing gold colour.

The Alesa rims are eyeleted, but they are not double-walled. They seem pretty strong and heavy, however.

I am undecided whether to use the front wheel yet. I have a pretty good vintage Miche hub and Mavic rim on there at the moment, which have plenty of life in them.
Last edited by Bice on 11 Aug 2021, 10:30am, edited 2 times in total.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
RJC
Posts: 188
Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 7:17pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by RJC »

Which parts do you mean by 'hub caps'? Nothing comes to mind at the moment.
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Dust caps. Nice find and excellent work. Here’s the tech doc, why didn’t you remove the 2.3mm DS spacer (4)?
Attachments
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Bice
Posts: 292
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

nsew wrote: 10 Aug 2021, 10:31pm Dust caps. Nice find and excellent work. Here’s the tech doc, why didn’t you remove the 2.3mm DS spacer (4)?
Sorry, yes dust caps.

I did not have the DS 2.3mm spacer: maybe it had been added to the cone in this version, which was one of those with a kind of split washer on the cone itself? It was quite long, and I just saved space by substituting it.

The drive side had only the (long) cone and a very thin (1mm or even 0.5mm) spacer. Now it just has my shorter cone and the locknut.

Perhaps it had already been fettled a bit?
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Bice wrote: 10 Aug 2021, 11:09pm
nsew wrote: 10 Aug 2021, 10:31pm Dust caps. Nice find and excellent work. Here’s the tech doc, why didn’t you remove the 2.3mm DS spacer (4)?
Sorry, yes dust caps.

I did not have the DS 2.3mm spacer: maybe it had been added to the cone in this version, which was one of those with a kind of split washer on the cone itself? It was quite long, and I just saved space by substituting it.

The drive side had only the (long) cone and a very thin (1mm or even 0.5mm) spacer. Now it just has my shorter cone and the locknut.

Perhaps it had already been fettled a bit?
I strongly doubt it was fettled before, judging from the space remaining in the photo. They get ‘stuck’ to the lock nut and both appear as one piece on removal and refitting. I’m assuming you’ve removed the 0.5mm washer (5). If you do go back (and I’m thinking you will), i’d replace the 0.5mm washer after removing the 2.3mm washer. Reason being it’s probably wise to have a washer between the lock nut and seal washer. 2.3mm removed from the DS gives an 11.5% wheel strength gain. The 0.5mm washer gave a 2.5% strength gain. You can also ‘cheat’ the dish 1mm for a 16.5% total gain but you may have already done something along those lines if I’m understanding your post.
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Just re-read your post. I’d also replace (6) the axle spacer that holds the seal ring. As that sets the seal exactly where it needs to be to perform its duty. Freehub DS bearings are the most exposed of the four sets on a bike. My advice is to set it up on the DS exactly as in the diagram, with the exception of the 2.3mm spacer.
Bice
Posts: 292
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

nsew wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 1:38am Just re-read your post. I’d also replace (6) the axle spacer that holds the seal ring. As that sets the seal exactly where it needs to be to perform its duty. Freehub DS bearings are the most exposed of the four sets on a bike. My advice is to set it up on the DS exactly as in the diagram, with the exception of the 2.3mm spacer.
Image

This is the original cone from the hub, which is slightly different from the diagram.

It is one piece and I guess the integrated 'washer', which is loose and slightly wider than the cone, acts as a seal for the bearings.

I could put it back on, but it will add about 2mm to the drive side: ie it is 2mm longer than the substitute I have put on (which does not have this seal ring).

It might be worth doing this for the sealing. Probably the wheel would still fit OK in the frame, but the chainline will no longer be the straight line that it is: from middle chainring to the fourth (central) cog on the seven-speed cassette. (I have reduced the spacing on the drive side to about the minimum: fitting the wheel involves some manoeuvering with the outside cog and the frame stay.)

(Separately, another reason - apart from just getting the wheel as strong as possible - that I was keen to redish this wheel was because the Miche rear derailleur was brushing the spokes on the largest cog. That was really an issue with the Miche being a bit bulky. But it doesn't brush now.)
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
nsew
Posts: 1006
Joined: 14 Dec 2017, 12:38pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by nsew »

Chainline is not too big an issue on a narrower 7sp hub. It can wander 2 or 3mm inwards quite happily without affecting running on the big gear (small sprocket). When I strip a hub I use two sheets of A4, I place the dirty parts on one in the order and alignment they’re removed and when clean move to the other sheet keeping the same order.

The cone in the photo looks like the larger NDS cone. Is it 15mm?
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