New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

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Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

Image
I have been giving my London commuter / light tourer Carlton Courette 3x seven speed some mild touring work, and it is not bearing up well.

The problem is the rear wheel, a Tiagra 8-speed (with spacers) with 32 spokes and a Mavic Open Sport rim.

Today I noticed some non-drive spokes were so loose they were visibly obvious.

This wheel is a problem, but I picked it up at Wandsworth dump so cannot complain. It was thrown out because of some damage I reckon. In the past, I have just tightened up a few spokes to run it straight and it has more or less done its job.

Today I decided to be more methodical: loosening all the spokes and starting again in the truing stand. First off the rim is about an inch skewed, so there is some uneven spoke tightening to sort right at the start. A few of the spokes are replacements of different lengths.

I then broke a drive-side spoke just as I was finishing, and so I had to start again replacing it with an old spoke.

I doubt whether this wheel is good for anything but commuting and short distances, to be frank.

I certainly would not trust it on a tour, or even over long distance. The rim was never ideal for touring, even when new with all decent spokes.

The question is: Keep the hub and replace the rim with something solid like a Sputnik? Or replace the hub and rim and build a new wheel?

Keeping the Tiagra means running an 8-speed hub with spacers (which is what Spa seems to propose with its Ambrosio rear hubs: https://spacycles.co.uk/m20b0s117p1979/ ... h-rear-hub

But if I am going to the trouble of assembling a new wheel, I would prefer it to be a proper seven-speed one with minimal dish.

Also, although I have made up a 10-speed Campagnolo sealed-bearing Record rear wheel, I am not that keen on hubs like Ambrosio that do not have cup and cone.

But the main reservation I have with keeping going with the Tiagra is that it is 32H, about which I have strong, negative views.

Even on my road bikes I have built wheels with 36 spokes, and I have had no issues whatsoever.

I see on this Tiagra 32H wheel the original spokes are quite thick: thicker than on my road bikes, so as well as being less strong than 36 spokes there is not even much benefit on weight either.

So I am inclined to built a 36H strong rear wheel, which I can just forget about.

I have seen this hub on eBay which seems ideal: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265076671133 ... 1438.l2649

I would build this up with a Sputnik rim and DT Swiss new spokes.

Any other thoughts?

The pic below shows the spacers needed for my Tiagra hub to run as a seven speed:

Image
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
peetee
Posts: 4292
Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm
Location: Upon a lumpy, scarred granite massif.

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by peetee »

Unfortunately, that hub on eBay is not compatible with 7 speed Hyperglide cassettes. The splines are different and it takes a screw-on small cog not the internally threaded lock-ring.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Nigel
Posts: 463
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Nigel »

Hubs, I'd just get an 8-speed, it will be far less hassle medium term. There are 130mm Shimano ones in 36 hole, SJS cycles and Spa offer Shimano ones at "105 grade" with 36H for about £50, which have conventional cones.

I suspect the spoke failures are down to the quality of the original wheel, its spokes, and its assembly. Done with decent parts, properly, I'd expect it to be fine. That said, my 700c wheels are 36spoke, its only the 26in (mountain bike) wheels which are 32spoke.

7-speed cassettes are heading towards the dodo, the only ones I could find recently were very bottom of quality range, not the usual "decent Shimano" stuff I'd usually use. However, an 8-speed has near enough the same spacing, such that it will almost certainly work (its a fraction of a mm over the 3 cogs each side of centre). Just set the limit screws on the derailleur so it covers 7 of the 8 cogs, and align the middle cog of the 7 carefully on the cable pull. My plan is to use a 11-28 8-speed to replace a 13-28 7-speed, and just ignore the small 11tooth sprocket. The remaining 7 cogs are the same ratios.
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

Nigel wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 7:48pm My plan is to use a 11-28 8-speed to replace a 13-28 7-speed, and just ignore the small 11tooth sprocket. The remaining 7 cogs are the same ratios.
I actually bought two spare Sram PG730 12-32 7-speed cassettes from SJS a year or so ago. I run them on this bike with a cuple of 10-speed spacers.

I am not worried about the shifting: I prefer old Suntour friction shift on seven speed anyway (the indexed one I have being approximate).

Of course, I could always go back to freewheel ...
Last edited by Bice on 26 Jul 2021, 9:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

peetee wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 7:34pm Unfortunately, that hub on eBay is not compatible with 7 speed Hyperglide cassettes. The splines are different and it takes a screw-on small cog not the internally threaded lock-ring.
Never encountered them. Thanks for heads-up.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
NickJP
Posts: 797
Joined: 24 Sep 2018, 7:11pm
Location: Canberra, OZ

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by NickJP »

peetee wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 7:34pmUnfortunately, that hub on eBay is not compatible with 7 speed Hyperglide cassettes. The splines are different and it takes a screw-on small cog not the internally threaded lock-ring.
I have a couple of 7-speed freehubs like that, and they have both the threading for a screw-on small cog and internal threading for a lockring, so they can be used with a hyperglide cassette. This one may be the same.

I run them using 9-speed components and a 9-speed cassette with the smallest cog removed. An 11-32 with the 11 cog removed gives a 12-32, and the 12 cog on those cassettes also has the serrations to engage a lockring. You do need to scrounge a lockring intended for a 12 tooth small cog, though, as the lockring intended for use with an 11 is too small an outer diameter.

Here is one of the freehubs in question. You can see it has both the internal and external threading.
PXL_20210726_210325121.jpg
fastpedaller
Posts: 3435
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by fastpedaller »

The one highlighted on Ebay does not have the internal threading - very clear from the latter photos.
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4628
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by slowster »

My suggestion would be to buy one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-STX- ... SwSVRdKf2w

As per the tech doc (https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/stor ... -1485C.pdf), all you need do to respace that hub from 135mm to 130mm (which I presume is the OLN of the current Tiagra 8 speed hub) is remove the 5mm spacer (item 11) and shorten the axle enough that the ends do not protrude beyond the drop outs/do not interfere with the quick release securely clamping the wheel.

NB If you are getting a strong sense of déjà vu, that is because you have already purchased that hub for one of your other bikes, as discussed at length in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=142401&start=90
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

Yes, it is a good thought, but in fact I have removed spacer from the Tiagra hub to get it to 126mm. Can I get the STX - a really good hub - to fit 126mm? Perfect, if so. I need to get the rubber stuff off and have a good look. I have never mixed MTB hubs on road bikes before. Not sure what is on that STX axle.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4628
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by slowster »

Remove the 8mm spacer instead of the 5mm. That will will respace the hub to 127mm, which should be sufficient. You might have to modify or dispense with the rubber shield.
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

slowster wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 11:34pm My suggestion would be to buy one of these:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-STX- ... SwSVRdKf2w

As per the tech doc (https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/stor ... -1485C.pdf), all you need do to respace that hub from 135mm to 130mm (which I presume is the OLN of the current Tiagra 8 speed hub) is remove the 5mm spacer (item 11) and shorten the axle enough that the ends do not protrude beyond the drop outs/do not interfere with the quick release securely clamping the wheel.

NB If you are getting a strong sense of déjà vu, that is because you have already purchased that hub for one of your other bikes, as discussed at length in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=142401&start=90
This is bicycle mechanics insomnia ... I have just removed the rubber housing from the 26" STX rear hub. Without all the 16mm of spacers - I had added 2mm to the non-drive side on recommendation of nsew to improve the dish, thus 137mm not 135mm - I have 121mm.

So it is just a case of adding 5mm and putting it all on the Tiagra quick release axle, and this excellent 36H STX hub should fit a 700mm wheel just fine. I think ... ?
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

On the other hand, this is an important point ...
Nigel wrote: 26 Jul 2021, 7:48pm Hubs, I'd just get an 8-speed, it will be far less hassle medium term. ...

7-speed cassettes are heading towards the dodo, the only ones I could find recently were very bottom of quality range, not the usual "decent Shimano" stuff I'd usually use. However, an 8-speed has near enough the same spacing, such that it will almost certainly work (its a fraction of a mm over the 3 cogs each side of centre). ...
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
peetee
Posts: 4292
Joined: 4 May 2010, 10:20pm
Location: Upon a lumpy, scarred granite massif.

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by peetee »

The OP’s bike appears to be using Suntour Retro-friction gear levers so the 7/8 speed indexing disparity is irrelevant. I wonder if there is any need to stick to 7 speed at all?
FWIW, I have been running ‘reduced’ 8 cassettes with 7speed shifters for years without issue. Some bikes may vary but my ancient XT set-up is perfectly happy. This may be because it is a bit sloppy but if so it doesn’t result in worse shifting and still does its job faultlessly.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Bice
Posts: 293
Joined: 18 May 2020, 7:33pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Bice »

Yes, they are the Suntour friction shifters, which I much prefer to the indexed only Shimano seven-speed I have on the Marin. I have downtube shifters on 3 bikes, and the Suntour are the best.

On the Ciocc seven-speed racer I had an 8-speed Campagnolo wheel, but I did not like it and replaced it with a seven speed freewheel wheel with which I did the Eroica. It was a great improvement, although a much cheaper wheel. The problem was mainly because the seven speed shifters are indexed, although I also disliked forcing open the stays and the wrong dish. Much better would probably have been to remove a spacer, re-dish and fit some shifters that also do friction shifting.

On this bike, I will have a play with the old 8-speed cassette and see whether it fits the frame. I had no idea seven speed cassettes were so rare.
Daily: Carlton Courette 1982 mixte 42, 32, 22 x7
Van Nicholas Yukon titanium 50/34 10sp
Lazzaretti steel 1996 10sp 48/34
Trek 1.7 10sp 3x 2010;
Ciocc steel 1984 50/34x7
Marin Bolinas Ridge MTB c1995, 7x42, 34, 24
Scott Scale carbon MTB 27.5 inch
Nigel
Posts: 463
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: New seven speed 700mm back wheel needed

Post by Nigel »

Given you've got friction shifting, I'd just re-space the bike frame to 130mm. Or, just spring a 130mm hub into it anyway (which I've done for 30 years on a nominally 126mm width frame).

A decent quality 8-speed hub at 130mm and 36 hole is readily available. I think all the agonising about wheel dishing is unnecessary, its moving things tiny amounts. Quality hub, rim, spokes, nipples, assembled properly with the tensioning done correctly, and it will be fine.

If I were home-respacing that frame, using the oft-suggested "big bit of 2 inch wood as a lever to ease things out", then I'd arrange a tight wood clamp around the long mixte-tubes where they're near the brake bridge, so those tubes don't try to bend along their entire length.
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