OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

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mjr
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by mjr »

Raph wrote: 30 Sep 2021, 4:27pm Actually one aspect of having a camera on your bars is that the audio is pretty much totally road/bearing/brake noise, but on the Chilli bullet cam if you use the waterproof rear cover, the audio is fairly worthless anyway so you wouldn't be losing much.
Norfolk Constabulary say they don't need audio anyway. (They might even not want it. I forget.)
[...] A handlebar mounted camera often misses the relevant bits of action.
Like all cameras. No-one using a camera should expect 100% capture of offenders.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Raph
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Raph »

Right, so let's find out if the OP is in Norfolk!

My point that you may have missed was that audio wasn't critical as it's rubbish anyway on the bullet cam (and most action cams for that matter) so not much lost by having road and brake noise, hence partly making your point that audio isn't critical.

It's never gonna catch 100% but on the bars often catches 0%. If on the other hand it follows what you're looking at it catches most of what you saw. And the rear camera covers the remaining direction you're unlikely to be looking in. Cops I've sent vids to have commented on the quality and usefulness of the vids - tho none of them in Norfolk I should add.

From what you say it sounds like you reckon all helmet cams are a potential killer, totally fair point of course and it's good to have that opinion as part of the discussion, nevertheless I don't think it was in the original question was it?
De Sisti
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by De Sisti »

Raph wrote: 30 Sep 2021, 9:34pm Right, so let's find out if the OP is in Norfolk!
From the username I'd suggest Manchester.
Jdsk
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Jdsk »

Raph wrote: 30 Sep 2021, 9:34pmMy point that you may have missed was that audio wasn't critical as it's rubbish anyway on the bullet cam (and most action cams for that matter) so not much lost by having road and brake noise, hence partly making your point that audio isn't critical.
CyclingMikey uses audio recording to good effect. But I don't know if its presence affects the subsequent police actions or prosecutions.
https://www.youtube.com/user/CyclingMikey/videos

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Raph
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Raph »

Depends what happens - death threats are quite common from motorists, it's useful evidence, as is being able to prove you haven't incited any hostility by giving them an earful. When a camera is on the bars the internal "seismic" bike noise is some 20-30db louder than anything else.

I few years ago I had a case of a van driver trying to pin me against a bollard, this was accompanied by a load of him shouting through the open passenger window - in that case it was all unintelligible anyway, but catching malicious intent would have been very useful. Also a forward facing handlebar mounted camera would have caught nothing other than me wobbling towards a bollard, no proof of anything whatsoever.
Manc33
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Manc33 »

I caved in and just got a GoPro Hero 8 Black. Thanks for all the suggestions folks.

I kept watching footage from the Chilli Mk II, most of the time it picks up number plates fine (in the right lighting at a close enough distance) and they have improved that with the Mk II, but something about the footage kept telling me it looks like a digital camera from the early 2000's, despite apparently being 1080p - the bitrate on it must be quite low or something. Since it records for a long time, it's not a stretch to assume that's how it's doing it - with a lower bitrate than is ideal, for this application. I don't like that the Chilli puts out MOV files, I'd always rather it was MP4 done with h264/HEVC.

Then I was looking at TrustPilot reviews and thinking, maybe I'll get some sort of support after buying, maybe I won't.

With all that said the Chilli is still cheap for what it does IMO.

I started looking at the Drift Ghost X, which had possibly slightly better image quality than the Chilli, but in bright sunlight it's slow to adjust and again, some number plates will probably get missed. For example there's no detail in the sky on the Ghost X on the video I watched comparing it to a GoPro, whereas on the GoPro, the sky pretty much looks the way it does in reality.

Stabilizing the image... well this is partly why the GoPro costs so much and partly why the battery life is so short. I don't think image stabilization matters for using these cameras on a bicycle to record impatient drivers, but it's always better if you do have it.

What if you want the camera to have other uses like taking it on holiday? Then the GoPro makes sense again, it can do way more than just be a bike camera.

I just thought, if I got a Chilli, or a Ghost X, I'd be riding around wondering what the GoPro is like and why I didn't just get one from the outset, so I did. :P

There's the Ghost 4K+ out now with image stabilization, that's not as good as it is on the GoPro 8, while the Ghost 4K+ costs just as much :!: I suppose the reason is the battery lasts longer on the Ghost 4K+ but again, why does it - I guess the bitrate isn't as high as it would be on a GoPro.

This video is the one that swayed me between the Ghost X and GoPro Hero 8 Black. He swaps between Ghost X and GoPro all the way through it (although he's not talking about cameras much). He sets the GoPro to not use image stabilization and sets it on 1080p, so it's setup the way the Ghost X is. I guess when the Ghost X is £70 and the GoPro is £280 then maybe it's not a fair comparison, but it's just showing the increase in quality you get for that extra money. Towards the end he does put the GoPro on higher quality with stabilization on to show what its like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoqQsLEMqKE
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mjr
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by mjr »

De Sisti wrote: 1 Oct 2021, 8:34am
Raph wrote: 30 Sep 2021, 9:34pm Right, so let's find out if the OP is in Norfolk!
From the username I'd suggest Manchester.
Then based on what I've read about Greater Manchester Police and their attitude to cyclists, it's all irrelevant anyway! ☹
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Manc33
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Manc33 »

"Nyah nyah" I'm in Manchester.
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Raph
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Raph »

Well, I'm glad you didn't go for the Chilli cam cos I've now done the first couple of rides with it, and it's better than the old one but still pretty terrible. As you say, in the right light it picks up number plates, but in bright sunlight they're washed out and totally blank, and when it gets dark they reflect your bike light and are also washed out and blank... And generally in low light the detail becomes really awful and blotchy.

So it's back to the Garmin Virb, and having to change battery every 2 hours. But I've got a stack of spares and I usually manage to pick a quiet bit of road to change it on the move so I don't even have to stop. The other pain is having the erase it each time as it doesn't record over old material, it just bleeps and stops recording when full.
Manc33
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Manc33 »

I've been messing about with the GoPro Hero8 Black for 2 days getting the settings right for night time under street lights.

First ride at night, I set it to what people recommend for night time under street lights (min 100 ISO, max 800 ISO) and the video came out too dark. It was also at 24 FPS and 1/48 shutter, which is what it needs to be set at for night time but at 24 FPS, car number plates are blurry when they are going past.

For the 2nd night ride, I set it at min & max 6400 ISO and that came out utilizing what little amount of light there was, I can make out clouds in the sky at 9:30 PM, 3 hours after sunset! The problem though was I again had it set to 24 FPS and number plates are blurry when a car is passing. Without movement it's fine, but at 24 FPS, no.

I'm setting it up again at 60 FPS, 1/120th shutter, with min ISO 100 and max ISO 6400 but I have yet to go out testing it at night on those settings. Lets see if it captures moving number plates with the FPS upped by x2.5.

The problem is, if you raise the FPS, the slowest available shutter speed increases. It's hard to find the right balance and takes a lot of testing! Also if you use 4K, you're limited to "Wide" lens (when it has "Super Wide" on it) and stabilization on a medium setting (when it has a higher setting). Cutting back to 2.7K, these limitations aren't there and you can have the widest lens with max stabilization.

For daytime, it's so much easier, just set it all on auto at 4K/60FPS and it should in theory capture every number plate, no matter what. I hardly ever ride in the daytime hence needing something that works at night.

It's asking too much from a camera to expect it to do everything, I mean it would need a far bigger sensor.

I think there's a big gap in the market to be honest. You want a camera as tough as a GoPro, with a far bigger sensor, so you could have it set to 400 ISO or 800 ISO at night under streetlights and get a nice image. Maybe astrophotographers use such cameras but they probably cost a fortune and wouldn't be robust enough (or waterproof) for this sort of usage. I know even they stack images to get better exposures and they have sensors that are far bigger.

The fact that the GoPro has 6400 ISO is what makes it usable to get bright enough night footage.

Here's a clip fro the GoPro, 4K, 6400 ISO, 24 FPS, no streetlights, just my Cree front light... you have to download it to see it properly (playing it on Dropbox limits it to 720p)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/md86kjhtp7kda ... S.mp4?dl=1
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Manc33
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Re: OK time for a helmet cam methinks...

Post by Manc33 »

Here's what I've gleaned from using the GoPro for about 7 rides, night and day...

You're never going to capture sharp enough number plates at nights when cars are passing or you ride past them. This is because the shutter speed (on auto or if it's fixed) needs to be at the slowest possible, to let in more light, to get any sort of normal looking video footage. At night, setting FPS to 24 (the lowest) is important because this lets the most light in the shutter.

Perhaps a camera like the Insta360 would be better suited to night footage since it has a 1 inch sensor, but that camera costs even more than a GoPro (at least the GoPro I ended up buying) and in daytime there's no real benefit to it; this one costs over £500. :cry:

In the daytime the GoPro is amazing. Every single number plate of every single car is crystal clear.

I spent a week adjusting settings and ended up with the following as a general day and night setting:

Resolution: 4K
FPS: 24
Lens: SuperView
HyperSmooth: Boost
Bit Rate: Standard
ISO Min: 100
ISO Max: 6400
Sharpness: Medium
Color: Flat

(Anything else not listed above, is set to auto).

For daytime only, the footage will come out better if EV Comp is set on -0.5 and white balance is set on 5500k. Then you'll get miles better looking footage than the standard GoPro creates by default, with its over-saturation (GoPro color).

For night footage, the above settings are the best I can come up with after doing a lot of tests. You could leave it on those settings for daytime too, but you're going to get bleached out details on bright areas and it will have a blue tint, especially in areas with a lot of grass, so it's better to lower EV comp by 1 notch and raise the white balance to 5500k for daytime footage, you'll be glad you did.

Here's the video I saw explaining why and how to set it up properly, at least for daytime footage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DoKXA8tCq0

At night I just kept fiddling with the settings and doing a lot of tests. I found that Auto shutter works well. A wide range on the ISO also works well, it means you can get footage looking OK under street lights, or along a pitch black road with your bike light enough to make the footage OK, but if you step indoors it adjusts the ISO down (and the shutter speed up) and it looks good in both scenarios. At night it's important to use Flat Color (not GoPro Color) because with it on flat, you can even see into shadows at night. Set on GoPro color, it "crushes" the blacks and makes shadows dark, as explained in the above video.

Now my day footage looks like a movie studio filmed it. :)
We'll always be together, together on electric bikes.
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