Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

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GuyBoden
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Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by GuyBoden »

This week, I have been using a combination of a friction shifter with a Shimano 10 speed MTB Rear Derailleur and it's working fine. The concern was that the friction shifter wouldn't work with the large cable pull of the newer Shimano 10 speed MTB RD, but the friction shifter worked fine. The friction shifter needs to move 180 degrees between the lowest and highest cassette sprocket, which is more than was needed for 9 speed, so you do have to move the lever more.

I'm using a Dia-Compe Silver friction shifter.
http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/silv ... ift-lever/
Image

I'm using the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 SGS (No clutch)
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 81-GS.html
Image

Thankyou to everyone who responded to my original post.
This thread.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=148212
cycle tramp
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by cycle tramp »

Thanks for posting this, how do you find using the friction lever ?
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MartinC
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by MartinC »

cycle tramp wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 9:56pm Thanks for posting this, how do you find using the friction lever ?
That's a question I'd be interested in the answer. Intuitively I think the smaller sprocket spacing will make it more finicky. But MickF of this parish says that this isn't so - given all the tooth profiling, jockey wheel float, etc for indexed shifting I'm prepared to believe him. Another actual experience would be valuable.
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GuyBoden
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by GuyBoden »

Due to the 10 speed MTB rear derailleur needing more pull, you have to move the friction shifter more distance when moving between rear sprockets. I think this is an advantage and less "finicky" compared to using a 9 speed rear derailleur with a friction shifter. The gears work very smoothly, as you would expect with Deore XT derailleurs.

A few other things to consider:

1.) There is no cable adjuster on the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 RD, so the gear cable needs to be installed very tight in the highest gear. Alternatively, you could use an additional inline adjuster.

2.) The Dia-Compe silver friction shifter has a ratchet mechanism, which prevents the shifter from slippage. This is an advantage considering that the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 RD has an increased spring tension. (It's a shadow type, but no clutch.)

3.) The Friction shifter moves 180 degrees from the lowest gear to the highest gear, this moves the lever parallel to the downtube for the highest and then the lowest gears. I like this feature.

4.) Large barrel ratchet mechanism friction shifters will probably be the ideal type for working with a Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 RD, but most other friction shifters should work ok, as long as they're not prone to slippage and move 180 degree. (About 32mm of cable pull.)
MartinC
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by MartinC »

Guy, thanks. Useful.
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freiston
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by freiston »

Thanks for the update, Guy - it is useful to know.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
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GuyBoden
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by GuyBoden »

GuyBoden wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 11:44am This week, I have been using a combination of a friction shifter with a Shimano 10 speed MTB Rear Derailleur and it's working fine. The concern was that the friction shifter wouldn't work with the large cable pull of the newer Shimano 10 speed MTB RD, but the friction shifter worked fine. The friction shifter needs to move 180 degrees between the lowest and highest cassette sprocket, which is more than was needed for 9 speed, so you do have to move the lever more.

I'm using a Dia-Compe Silver friction shifter.
http://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/silv ... ift-lever/
Image

I'm using the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 SGS (No clutch)
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 81-GS.html
Image

Thankyou to everyone who responded to my original post.
This thread.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=148212
Everything is still working fine with this setup, even with all the winter mud from country lane riding.
David9694
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by David9694 »

If it’s working for you, then happy days. I started out the same way on my gravel build, but wasn’t happy with that amount of d/t lever travel so I installed a Jteck.
Spa Audax Ti Ultegra; Genesis Equilibrium 853; Raleigh Record Ace 1983; “Raleigh Competition”, “Raleigh Gran Sport 1982”; “Allegro Special”, Bob Jackson tourer, Ridley alu step-through with Swytch front wheel; gravel bike from an MB Dronfield 531 frame.
Blondie
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by Blondie »

I use friction on 9 speed and you soon develop muscle memory for how far you need to throw the lever.
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freiston
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by freiston »

Blondie wrote: 15 Feb 2022, 10:23pm I use friction on 9 speed and you soon develop muscle memory for how far you need to throw the lever.
True, but sometimes my "internalised indexing" on my 9 speed friction bar-end shifter goes out of kilter :lol:

Sometimes I do think that because of the efficiency of ramps, pins and tooth shape, my shifting is sometimes more positive than it ought to be given the actual (mis)alignment of the mech with the sprockets and sometimes a change in torque will result in a change in gear; back in the old days of 5 speed blocks, I would have had more "feedback" and would be forced to align more accurately. I haven't ridden a 5 speed for years but my muscle memory suggests that I had to throw the down tube lever less than I do with my 9 speed bar-end lever for a single shift (it's been about 2 years since I last reached down for my [non-existent] down tube shifter but about 25 years since I actually used one). The down tube shifting in my memory seems much more subtle than the bar-end shifting. I could be wrong and I suppose an examination of cable pull required at the mech and radius of the cable "wheel" at the shifter would give a better idea.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
pq
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by pq »

I very much like DT friction levers, and I'd use them more if it was possible to fit them to my more modern frames. I wouldn't be keen on having to have 180 degrees of travel on the lever, I wonder whether using a 9 speed derailleur would make more sense? I've used a 9 speed XT derailleur on a friction 8 speed system and the travel on the lever was about right. With a 10 speed cassette being the same width as an 8 I'd have thought that would be a good set-up. With no indexing to worry about I can't see it not working.
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slowster
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by slowster »

pq wrote: 16 Feb 2022, 12:36pm I very much like DT friction levers, and I'd use them more if it was possible to fit them to my more modern frames. I wouldn't be keen on having to have 180 degrees of travel on the lever, I wonder whether using a 9 speed derailleur would make more sense? I've used a 9 speed XT derailleur on a friction 8 speed system and the travel on the lever was about right. With a 10 speed cassette being the same width as an 8 I'd have thought that would be a good set-up. With no indexing to worry about I can't see it not working.
I think you have two options:

- a 9 speed derailleur, or a 10 speed road derailleur if the long cage version gives the required capacity and is suitable for the largest sprocket, because both use the same short cable pull ratio.

- a 10 speed MTB derailleur like the OP's (or possibly 11 speed), but with the Dia-Compe levers designed for 11 speed with a much larger barrel on the RH lever to accommodate the longer cable pull ratio of those derailleurs.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... -shifters/

As for frames with the bosses, Spa's and some of SJS's frames have them, but I doubt we will see a resurgence of them on mass market frames, especially not on carbon frames.
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GuyBoden
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by GuyBoden »

Update:

I've installed a new 40T Cassette with the Rear Derailleur "B-stop" screwed in, so it clears the 40T sprocket.

I'm still using the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 SGS (No clutch) rear derailleur with the Dia-Compe Silver friction shifters. Works well, no problems, apart from 180 degree leverage movement for lowest sprocket.

40T sprocket seems to be the max for the Shimano MTB 10 speed RD-M781 SGS (No clutch) rear derailleur, without using a goattooth extender.
pwa
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by pwa »

I got around the problem of a rear mech having no cable tension adjuster by mucking around with an in-line adjuster so that it sits in the socket where a cable adjuster would be, if Shimano did not consider that to be too vulnerable a position for one. It has worked okay like that for years. Technically it is still in-line, but at the very end of the cable casing.
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geomannie
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Re: Info: Friction shifter that works with Shimano MTB 10 speed rear derailleur.

Post by geomannie »

MartinC wrote: 17 Oct 2021, 11:55am
cycle tramp wrote: 16 Oct 2021, 9:56pm Thanks for posting this, how do you find using the friction lever ?
That's a question I'd be interested in the answer. Intuitively I think the smaller sprocket spacing will make it more finicky. But MickF of this parish says that this isn't so - given all the tooth profiling, jockey wheel float, etc for indexed shifting I'm prepared to believe him. Another actual experience would be valuable.
FWIW, on my gravel bike I use DiaCompe friction shifters with a Deore 9 speed rear derailleur & 10 speed Shimano 11-34 cassette. It works fine.
geomannie
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