Building a recumbent trike rear wheel

[fullfathom5]

I want to get a new 20" rear wheel built for my ICE Adventure trike fitted with a conventional 9 speed cassette (i.e. not Capreo). I'm ordering over the Internet so can somebody explain in very simple terms what needs to be done regarding dishing the wheel please?

I passed on the following information from ICE to the wheel builder (SJS Cycles):

Our rear frame is built asymmetric so the right hand drop out is further out from centre line than the left.
If a standard wheel was placed in the frame then it would need to be re-dished about 6mm to the left to get it to be on centre line of the trike (and to look like it is the middle of the gap at the chain stays around the tyre).

And SJS Cycles replied with:

'Imagine the wheel was dished so the rim was central (i.e., normally), so the centre of the rim is at 135/2 (67.5mm) away from the right dropout.
Are you saying you would like this 67.5mm to become 73.5mm?'

Is this what is needed or has something got lost in translation?

Any help gratefully received! Thanks.

[Jdsk]

I'd try to get them to talk to each other directly.

Jonathan

[squeaker]

The rim needs to be central between the hub flanges, not central between the locknut faces. (In the past I have found it possible to re-set a conventionally built 406 wheel to work in an ICE rear triangle, but you need to be fairly confident with wheel building to do it - or be prepared to go to a pro if it all goes pear shaped.)

[531colin]

What do they mean "about" 6mm?
Its either 6mm or its 7 or 5mm.

Orbit bikes used to have the rear dropouts exactly 4mm offset to the right.
So I used to build wheels using a regular dishing stick and an 8mm spacer.

Its not difficult.

[Chris Jeggo]

The first two replies both sound good to me, provided that the spacing between the dropouts is 135mm, which I think you and SJS are implying and which I assume.

... information from ICE:

Our rear frame is built asymmetric so the right hand drop out is further out from centre line than the left.
If a standard wheel was placed in the frame then it would need to be re-dished about 6mm to the left to get it to be on centre line of the trike (and to look like it is the middle of the gap at the chain stays around the tyre).

I'm not saying anything new here, just using different words: The 'standard wheel' has the centre plane of the rim symmetrically placed with respect to the cone lock-nuts, because standard frames are built symmetric. So for a 'standard wheel' on a 135mm hub the rim willl be 67.5mm from the outer face of each lock-nut. Then ICE are saying that an asymmetric wheel for their frame needs to have the rim 73.5mm from the inner face of the right dropout and 61.5mm from the left dropout (assuming dropout separation of 135mm).

And SJS Cycles replied with:

'Imagine the wheel was dished so the rim was central (i.e., normally), so the centre of the rim is at 135/2 (67.5mm) away from the right dropout.
Are you saying you would like this 67.5mm to become 73.5mm?'

So, yes, but you could send SJS's reply to ICE and ask them to confirm.

[squeaker]

What do they mean "about" 6mm?
Its either 6mm or its 7 or 5mm.

Because the physical relationship between the hub flanges and the left side lock nut face varies according to hub make? (I've no idea - clearly - but it strikes me that the distance between hub flanges is not such a critical dimension as, say, OLN. Is there such a thing as an international standard?)

[Mick F]

Build it yourself.
Simple and easy ......... honestly.

Buy the rim and the hub.
Measure them, and then buy the spokes.
Use the frame as a wheel-jig and Bob's your uncle.
All you need is a spoke key.

[Mick F]

PS:
Sorry if I seem grumpy and dismissive.

It really is simple to build a wheel. Hard part is lacing it ........ or it is for me to get my head round it.
Three cross is the usual way, and this YouTube video explains it perfectly.
Yes, it's a 36h BMX, but the idea is fine for 28h or 30h and for any diameter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIU6mi0K4Y4

[531colin]

What do they mean "about" 6mm?
Its either 6mm or its 7 or 5mm.

Because the physical relationship between the hub flanges and the left side lock nut face varies according to hub make? (I've no idea - clearly - but it strikes me that the distance between hub flanges is not such a critical dimension as, say, OLN. Is there such a thing as an international standard?)

Almost all bikes have both wheels aligned along the centre-line of the frame.....about the only exception being some Mike Burrows(?) designs which have the wheels parallel rather than in line.
The huge majority of bikes have symmetrical frames; the left and right dropouts are the same distance from the mid-line......the rim is equi-distant from the left and right dropouts.
A very few bikes (yours, a few old Orbits) have the dropouts offset from the midline....the rim is NOT equidistant from the dropouts.
The hub flange spacing has nothing to do with this; provided the spacing is reasonably conventional the wheel will work, and no, there isn't a universally- accepted flange spacing.

[531colin]

This..............

"And SJS Cycles replied with:......

'Imagine the wheel was dished so the rim was central (i.e., normally), so the centre of the rim is at 135/2 (67.5mm) away from the right dropout.
Are you saying you would like this 67.5mm to become 73.5mm?'...."

Is all very well, and it is factually correct, because its moved the rim 6mm.
But its a pain in the bum to work with.....because you will be trying to measure to the centre of the rim somehow.
Why not just use a dishing stick and a 12mm spacer?

And before somebody asks, you need a 12mm spacer because the dishing stick compares the difference between the right and the left.....and the difference is 2 x 6 = 12mm

[Tigerbiten]

Won't the distance change between the lock nut and flange depending if it can fit a disk rotor or not ??
That probably account the variability in the 6mm measurement.
I do know m Rohloff has a reverse dish to cope with the frame offset.

Luck .........

[Mick F]

As I said .............
Buy the rim and the hub, measure them, and then buy the spokes, and use your frame as a jig.

You can't go wrong.

[Chris Jeggo]

To get the rim in the same plane as the central plane of the bike frame the asymmetry of the dishing has to cancel out the asymmetry of the dropouts. Where the hub flanges finish up depends on the choice of hub. It therefore follows that the symmetry of the spoking depends on the choice of hub.
There are two desirable symmetries, the rim with respect to (wrt) the bike frame, and the rim wrt the hub flanges. If the frame builder knows the asymmetry of the hub flanges wrt the locknuts then he can build the frame to match, and everything will be lovely. Clearly ICE have designed their frame on the assumption that the central plane of the hub flanges is 6mm from the central plane of the locknut faces.

[Jdsk]

I want to get a new 20" rear wheel built for my ICE Adventure trike fitted with a conventional 9 speed cassette (i.e. not Capreo). I'm ordering over the Internet so can somebody explain in very simple terms what needs to be done regarding dishing the wheel please?

Do you want any more advice on how to build the wheel yourself, or only on this approach?

Jonathan

[531colin]

Won't the distance change between the lock nut and flange depending if it can fit a disk rotor or not ??
That probably account the variability in the 6mm measurement.
I do know m Rohloff has a reverse dish to cope with the frame offset.

Luck .........

Rohloff are designed to have no dish on a conventional (symmetrical) frame.....so put it in a frame with offset dropouts, and it can't still be dishless.

I have only measured left locknut to flange distance on the good old steel axle XT; and its exactly the same on 6 bolt disc hubs as rim brake hubs....ie the conical rubber thing had the same amount of room as the disc mounting. Virtually all rear hubs (these days) have some "empty" space on the left side. A very few hubs have the left flange close to the locknut.....they build with a horrible dish.

But the 6mm business involves the frame and the rim, not the spoke flange.