Speeding up a steel touring bike

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by PH »

It's 90% rider and 10% bike, about the same ratio when it comes to aerodynamics.
Given the same fitness, lowering you body will make the most difference, I recently read that the most aerodynamic position on drop bars is on the hoods with elbows bent, that's easily achievable on straight bars. The thing most likely to slow you down is discomfort, I know a wet backside for hours will slow me down far more than mudguards ever could, others may be happy to tolerate that for the extra 0.5 mph. It's this comfort I'd concentrate on, when people fail these sorts of events, including me, it's rarely because they have the wrong bike, or even that they're not fast enough, it because some discomfort becomes the only thing in their head.
You haven't said if the route is hilly or flat, that might make some difference to how I'd prepare my bike. Don't underestimate the psychological element, if you believe your heavy bike is slowing you down on a hill then it probably is, regardless of the facts and figures.
I've ridden quite a few Audax on a flat bar, hub gear, touring bike that looks like a hybrid. It's always looked a little out of place and as the sport has evolved over the last decade, even more so, I don't think there's any problem with that, is there is it isn't my problem.
User avatar
Sweep
Posts: 8443
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 4:57pm
Location: London

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by Sweep »

On the fuelling OP how are you feeding?
I'd consider something like maltodextrin in one of the bottles then you can feed in bits as you glide along - better than riding riding and then wolfing stuff for a big hit.
Enjoy the ride at whatever speed.
Sweep
freeflow
Posts: 1637
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 1:54pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by freeflow »

You don't say what type of event nor do you give any information about you average cycling speed.

If you are riding an Audax or Sportive/Charity ride you will need to check what the cut off time is for completion to judge whether you need a significant increase in your cycling speed ( to either finish in time or satisfy a psychological need)

For Sportives/charity rides it also just as well to check what the cut off time is for feed stops.

To manage a reasonable speed on the day you will need to ride regularly between now and then, aiming to cover the event distance during a weeks riding, with one ride covering at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the event distance.

If you are new to distance riding then you need to be aware that you need to eat and drink well in advance of your feeling like eating or drinking. Eating regular small amounts whilst riding is a good way to cope but some folks find that difficult so try before the day. It would be a good idea to try some of your longer rides fasted and/or thirsty so that you know how such conditions affect your speed.

As you are riding an organised event you can remove panniers and bar bag. As others have discussed a change of tyres may be of benefit. Go and look at the bicycle rolling resistance web site to get an idea of the difference you might expect between current tyres and replacement tyres. You should also read up the Cycling magazine Tyre drop article to make sure that you have the most optimised tyre pressures. Over hard tyres are not the best for speed on roads. I find pressures below those recommended by the 15% drop chart work better for me.

DOn't worry about the bikes of other riders. Chances are they are Sunday riders and have no real understanding of why thaey have the bike that they are riding. What is more important is that you enjoy the day, even if it ends up being type 2 fun.
st599_uk
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by st599_uk »

Agree on the tyres, you'll lose more in mechanical vibration from unsupple hard tyres than you will gain in aerodynamics from thinner tyres, plus as it gets more uncomfortable your power output will drop. The problem is, we're accustomed to road vibration = speed, so it may feel a bit slower.

You'll get bigger aerodynamic gains from tighter clothing, ditching the panniers and using a bar bag and drafting other riders.
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by Jamesh »

If you have £200 spare I'd forget upgrading that bike to something it isn't!
It's an everyday commuter/touring bike / pony which isn't going to turn into a race horse over night!

You could easily buy a spez allez, Cannondale synapse etc for your £200. Such a bike will be much more adept at a fast sportive.
I went out on my 501 winter bike on the weekend and struggled to keep up with a big guy on a carbon focus cayo. :( :( :(

If you don't have space for 2 bikes that's an issue.

Tyres, wheels etc would then be my choice

You'll soon have 6 bikes!!

Cheers James
MrCJF
Posts: 102
Joined: 5 Aug 2020, 1:42pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by MrCJF »

In my experience (on a Genesis CdF 2x9 compact gearing) narrower tyres and losing the handlebar bag made the biggest difference. No reason not to use 25mm on the day so long as your travelling light. Taking off the rack helps as well of course.

I found the Carradice zipped roll (3 litre) and a waist pack (1 litre) was all I needed for the Ride London (100 miles) and the Dragon Ride GF (137 miles) given the food stops available enroute. I still looked big and bulky compared to the carbon weight weenies, but I was comfortable with the set up.

I could have got away with just the zipped roll, but I wanted my phone and wallet on my person rather than the bike.

I changed my gearing to 3x9 these days with a 30/36 bottom gear, so the hills on my next sportive will be abit more manageable. I did stop "to admire the view" quite a lot on the Dragon Ride.
mig
Posts: 2702
Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by mig »

ditto on the tyres thing.

i'd also take lots of time to study the nature of the 100 miles in the event in the spring. are they more hilly then you'd usually ride for instance? then keep the rest of your money in your pocket and prepare accordingly.
MrCJF
Posts: 102
Joined: 5 Aug 2020, 1:42pm
Location: Fleet, Hampshire

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by MrCJF »

Just to add - as you have a spare pair of wheels, put some narrow tyres on them and get out on them for training rides. You need to get used to cornering etc on the tyres you use on the day. I know "training heavy, racing light" is a motto for some, but do try and go out as much as you can in your "event" set up.
User avatar
NATURAL ANKLING
Posts: 13780
Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
Location: English Riviera

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
If I was only allowed to change one thing for comfort and performance it would be................the handlebars!

And you could leave all that junk on and you would still outperform a marginally fitter person on the same unchanged bike.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Jim
Posts: 31
Joined: 15 Jul 2020, 12:40pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by Jim »

There's nothing wrong with steel. My "weekend warrior" is a lovely Mercian which regularly gets admiring remarks from riders on carbon and aluminium framed bikes. Whilst removing the bags is sensible and better tyres will give you a marginal improvement, the biggest factor is your own level of fitness (in particular, stamina).
I recall, many years ago, riding a sponsored event from London to Bath to raise money for the first London/Brighton ride. A bunch of young riders hared off, but stopped later to rest. Off again, then rest. Meanwhile a group of Audax oldies with knee breeches and long socks pedaled steadily on. Guess who arrived first?

Enjoy it - that's what it's all about after all.
st599_uk
Posts: 1092
Joined: 4 Nov 2018, 8:59pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by st599_uk »

MrCJF wrote: 16 Nov 2021, 2:26pm In my experience (on a Genesis CdF 2x9 compact gearing) narrower tyres and losing the handlebar bag made the biggest difference. No reason not to use 25mm on the day so long as your travelling light. Taking off the rack helps as well of course.
Not sure why you'd want to go narrow - it increases the vibration loss. The increase in aerodynamic efficiency is based on the square of speed - so whilst an issue for TdF sprinters, it's outweighed by the reduction in vibration loss on crappy roads at normal speeds.

If you need to carry something, the loss caused by a handlebar bag is better than using panniers.

Here's Peter Sagan's tyre guy discussing choice and pressure:
A novice learning...
“the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.”
cycle tramp
Posts: 3531
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by cycle tramp »

...so way back in 2004, I tried the dunkery dash. It was something like 60 miles, from North Petherton up over the Quantocks, along a ridge of hills to the edge of Exmoor and back again..
..there was a wide variety of machinery, a trike and even a fixed wheel bike. There were also a couple of clubs and two guys on mountain bikes, with knobbly tyres, wide bars and front suspension..
..we set off, and the group broke up.. I only saw the mountain bike guys once more, they were heading towards me on the way back (as I was still on my way to the half way mark) having reached the edge of Exmoor. Not only that they were positioned between two packs of club riders, keeping pace with them - their knobbly tyres making a whirling sound that I heard from across the road. They didn't even look like they were trying that hard...
...everything we think we know may be wrong...
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
hoogerbooger
Posts: 673
Joined: 14 Jun 2009, 11:27am
Location: In Wales

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by hoogerbooger »

The position looks fairly upright ? ...and not very aero ?

(changing to drops is too expensive with the need for new levers etc.)

I tour on a flat bar bike with a bar bag and have ski-type bar ends that come right round to almost touch the bar bag. I set these slightly higher than the bar. This allows me to go low and rest my wrists on the bar when holding the bar ends, in a sort of pseodo-aero position, or adopt a slightly higher leaning forward position if not so windy. Longer bar ends will generally increase the hold options to change through for comfort over distance and allows a more forward/lower position into the wind. Unless you manage to slipstream someone all the way a more aero position should help. When you go up hill the bars effectively move closer, so I nearly always move forward to the bar ends on a climb.

I find it easier to maintain a forward lean/lower position when I have good core tone. Plenty of exercises on line for this.

Obviously if a better aero position can be achieved, it still needs to be comfortable RE sit bones and saddle and you'll just have to test it and see. If not a different saddle might be needed.

So that's my suggestion get some cheap bar ends and work on the 6 pack. Be proud to be on a steel-is-real tourer.

(all those carbon road boys will no doubt be totally dressed in recessive shades of black, so you probably won't see them anyway)
old fangled
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by slowster »

1. Stick with what you know and are familiar with. If you make significant changes to the bike, set-up, preparation or what you eat and drink while riding, make them well before the ride so that you can decide whether they work for you.

2. You have nothing to prove. Ultimately all you will be doing is having a nice day out on the bike, and that is what you should be focused on achieving and enjoying - not the speed nor the time. As long as you get round the route in the maximum permitted time and enjoy yourself, nothing else matters. To that end, do whatever works for you. People can - and will - make all sorts of suggestions about what you should change, but they are not you.

3. The only thing that would concern me if I were to ride 100 miles on your bike is the comfort of the flat handlebars: I like drop bars for the various different hand positions which they allow. But I am not you, and you have already ridden that sort of distance with those bars, so evidently they work for you.

4. You do not need to waste any time thinking about those people on carbon bikes. However, you can take some small sadistic satisfaction from the fact that at least some of those people will be worrying about you. In a large event, it is likely that at least a few of them will be less fit than you (they need the ultra light carbon bikes etc. to compensate for lack of fitness). There will plenty of speed merchants who will finish before you, but it would not surprise me if you found yourself overtaking the odd person on a carbon bike towards the end of the ride. Being overtaken by someone on a touring bike when you are riding a carbon lightweight is embarrassing. It's even worse if the person on the touring bike has panniers/a Carradice saddlebag and/or is wearing non-lycra type baggy shorts and t shirt.

5. As most others have said, tyres are the probably the one thing that is worth changing, because a tyre with lower rolling resistance is genuinely faster for the same amount of effort. You don't specify which version of Marathon tyres you have, but if they are the Supreme, then those are already fast rolling tyres and the scope to improve on them is limited. However, if they are one of the slower model Marathon tyres, such as the Greenguard or, worse still, the Marathon Plus, then you can get a much higher boost in speed from changing them.

As regards what tyres to fit, the Supreme or Conti GP5000 in 32mm width have already been suggested and should be very suitable. However, since you have mentioned a £200 budget for improvements and changes, I'll suggest you look at René Herse (formerly Compass Cycles). These are probably the best tyres on the market and are very expensive at around £80 per tyre. I would not spend so much money on a tyre, but I am not you and I have not signed up for a 100 mile ride and asked what to spend £200 on for improvements. I think for your situation it is a purchase which you can justify (and having them on should also give you a psychological boost as well as a genuine one in performance).

If the roads on the route are very smooth tarmac, it might make sense to fit narrower tyres, e.g. 28mm (although I would probably not bother with René Herse tyres if using narrow 28mm tyres), otherwise I would probably choose 32mm. However, I also would not hesitate to fit 35mm tyres, especially if the roads were rough/mediocre quality.

https://www.svencycles.co.uk/rene-herse-tyres-700c
User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 6044
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Speeding up a steel touring bike

Post by foxyrider »

cycle tramp wrote: 16 Nov 2021, 5:26pm ...so way back in 2004, I tried the dunkery dash. It was something like 60 miles, from North Petherton up over the Quantocks, along a ridge of hills to the edge of Exmoor and back again..
..there was a wide variety of machinery, a trike and even a fixed wheel bike. There were also a couple of clubs and two guys on mountain bikes, with knobbly tyres, wide bars and front suspension..
..we set off, and the group broke up.. I only saw the mountain bike guys once more, they were heading towards me on the way back (as I was still on my way to the half way mark) having reached the edge of Exmoor. Not only that they were positioned between two packs of club riders, keeping pace with them - their knobbly tyres making a whirling sound that I heard from across the road. They didn't even look like they were trying that hard...
...everything we think we know may be wrong...
Perhaps they were just very fit? I did something similar in the early nineties, my club used to do a Sheffield -York and back ride every August, i think our route was @ 60 miles each way and quite hilly at the Sheffield end. I was having a good season, i was destined to win half the club trophies, Tandem Club BAR etc, etc so on the day, to give me a work out and everyone else a chance to keep up, I used my rigid, steel mountain bike with steel guards and knobblies, admittedly pumped up a bit harder. Despite those 'handicaps' it was still me setting the pace amongst a pack of dropped bar race bikes and when the last few miles became a free for all, guess who was first back to Sheffield?

It might be Al rather than steel but i'm currently tootling along on 100km/100 mile rides on a touring bike with guards and steel racks at the same speed that i was earlier in the year on what is basically an 80's steel race bike. Yes the OP may benefit from losing some machine weight and some 'better' suited tyres but most of that will be head stuff, a more aero riding position would make quite a difference but unless you are used to it such a change may be more of a handicap in terms of comfort.

The biggest thing will be 'training' for the distance, you don't need to do the full 100 miles beforehand but try to get a good long 60/70 miler in each week, certainly after New Year, the aim is to be comfortable when you do step up for an extra hour or so in the saddle. And for me thats the crucial bit, saddle time, irrespective of speed but being able to sit on the bike for the required length of time for your expected ride pace, its no good pimping your ride, getting the food/drink thing sussed only to find that you can't sit on the saddle for the required 6, 7, 8, 9 hours. Pacing is important but if you haven't got the fuelling and comfort stuff sussed its not enough to get you around on its own, and don't panic if you are riding faster or slower than you planned, well unless you are running tight to any cut off times! Be realistic about what you can do, don't set a 20mph schedule if you normally ride at 15mph, set it at your normal ride speed and you will likely come in quicker.

The main thing on the day is that you enjoy yourself, if you are struggling with the pace, slow down, if you are uncomfortable, stop for a few minutes, drink plenty, eat regularly and before you know it the pain will be over! I've ridden a fair few charity/sportive events over the years on a variety of steeds, I always find myself doing the long option which is invariably 80 miles and upwards and often with silly amounts of climbing. I'm certainly not the quickest on the road but a measured approach usually sees me in the top 10% on the day - despite giving several decades and a deal of weight advantage to most of the other riders!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Post Reply