Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

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mr_mark_sid
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Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by mr_mark_sid »

I am a country vicar and my role requires me to ride country lanes at night. This time of year is a double jeopardy because the dark evenings and the fact that bulk farm materials like hay bales are trucked at night to avoid daytime traffic means that I sometimes encounter articulated lorries with very high cabs on dark lanes.

The high cab means there is an extended blind (or low visibility) spot infront of the cab and I have had some uncomfortable near misses. I have found a light on top of my helmet absolutely invaluable to resolve the issue. The extra height of the light compared to a frame mount seems to make a big difference.

1. What experience do others have?

2. How do you approach the 'be seen' aspect of lighting on dark country lanes?

3. I cover a lot of miles and so I work hard to reduce the 'per mile risk' any suggestions on how to reduce this risk?

I look forward to reading your reponses, Mark
rogerzilla
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by rogerzilla »

Pray a lot :D

You should be perfectly visible from more than a few yards away with a bike-mounted light. They will only be obscured when a lorry is very close. What kind of "near missss" have you had? Lorries braking very late? It could just be that they were going to overtake and abandoned the idea at the last moment due to a curve. IME lorry drivers are not very accommodating of cyclists these days - I sometimes get abuse or gratuitous use of the airhorns as they pass.
Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

I have front and rear flashing helmet lights which are nowhere near bright enough to dazzle. And on the bike I have B+M dynamo lights and front and rear battery lights. The rear battery light is always flashing and the front is off, or on and steady, or flashing according to conditions. It would probably be flashing in the conditions you describe in an attempt to catch other road users' attention as the light reflects off stuff.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

mr_mark_sid wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 7:49amThe high cab means there is an extended blind (or low visibility) spot infront of the cab...
Demonstration of blind spots...



And there's a famous one from London. Does anyone have anything similar for in front, please?

Jonathan
Pebble
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Pebble »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 9:26am
mr_mark_sid wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 7:49amThe high cab means there is an extended blind (or low visibility) spot infront of the cab...
Demonstration of blind spots...



And there's a famous one from London. Does anyone have anything similar for in front, please?

Jonathan
Do you get a lot of left hand drive American style trucks in London ? You see a lot better out of a modern day european wagons than that video shows - a good driver would know they were there - but of course not all wagon drivers are good drivers.

With high viz / reflective clothing plus lots of lights I feel I am more visible at night than during the day. And a following wagon should never have got so close that he can't see you, that would be appalling driving by anyone's standards, if one ever does get that close then get off the road as quick as possible - the driver is a moron.
Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

Pebble wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 9:53amYou see a lot better out of a modern day european wagons than that video shows...
Have you got a demonstration for one of those, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

This is the one that I was looking for... flat-fronted cab on an articulated lorry:



Jonathan
Pebble
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Pebble »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 10:08am This is the one that I was looking for... flat-fronted cab on an articulated lorry:



Jonathan
Again, that ancient Foden is not a good example, the mirrors are badly adjusted and we are getting from a 3 foot tall driver, he can barely see over the top of the steering wheel.
Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks.

It would be great if you could post a demonstration for the sort that you're describing.

Jonathan
MartinC
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by MartinC »

Mark, I'm not sure I understand what's happening here. I ride country lanes at night a lot (the nearest streetlight to us is 3 miles away). In my experience it's safer than daytime and I get no close misses or close passes. On a pitch black road a well lit bicycle is visible from miles away and I think things like pedal reflectors create an impression of a very scratchy object of indeterminate size. People will often pass as far across the road as they can. The are also very aware of cars approaching from the opposite direction.

Narrow, bendy lanes with high hedgerows, banks or walls may be different I guess - is this your environment? On a narrow road any overtake from a hay wagon is going to be a close pass and I guess they're under pressure to get past. I don't know what you can do about this. Maybe the couple of months of harvest time are just best avoided.

I think as a slow moving vehicle you're entitled to have a large flashing orange light. Someone else may know if this is correct. Maybe worth a try.
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mjr
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by mjr »

MartinC wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 10:55am I don't know what you can do about this. Maybe the couple of months of harvest time are just best avoided.

I think as a slow moving vehicle you're entitled to have a large flashing orange light. Someone else may know if this is correct. Maybe worth a try.
Can't avoid travelling for weeks on end!

Cycles are not generally slow moving vehicles in law so do not qualify for flashing amber beacons. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... ulation/27

You could of course use flashing whites(front) and reds(rear) in addition to solid ones.

My approach is to pull over ASAP and let farm harvest vehicles pass. They are on tight schedules dictated by weather and so on, which does not encourage good driving, in my experience. They seem worse than most HGV drivers. I am unhappy that they seem unpoliced, but still I pull over.

I don't use helmet lights because showing red to the front and white to the rear when you look around seems a really bad move, especially when you feel you may be dealing with a substandard driver anyway. It's also very common for them to dazzle. They should be illegal but aren't.

I also don't pay much attention to the dodgy videos of old trucks with insufficient mirrors from bad seating positions. They seem like a trick by the RHA to shift blame from their members to the victims.

My best approach is to make yourself noticeable with good big-illuminated-area steady lights, pedal reflectors and good positioning. I'd consider a Bikeability level 3 refresher session in your situation. It's unlikely to hurt and some councils even fund them.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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freiston
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by freiston »

I'm struggling to understand the OP too. I cycle country lanes in the dark but usually in the very wee hours and don't encounter much other traffic at all. I use dynamo lights (front light is an 80 lux B&M).

It's the bit about the blind spot in front of the lorry cab that I don't understand - whether it's day or night, I am visible enough to be seen before I get that close; if it's a blind spot, then it doesn't matter how well lit I am or how strong the sun is - once I'm in it, I can't be seen. If I'm approaching such a vehicle, I can be seen before I'm that close and when I get that close, I don't stay in front of the lorry but go to the side of it (this might be problematic on a single track lane). If the vehicle is approaching me from behind, they can see me well before they get that close but generally they don't get that close - they hold back until they can pass.

That covers point 1.

Point 2: I have dynamo lighting with standlights, a rear reflector built into the back light and I have fore and aft amber pedal reflectors. Any hi-viz/reflective baggage or clothing is not by my intent but incidental to the clothing and baggage that I have. I don't even pay particular attention as to whether my clothes are dark or light. My observation is that the failure rate in my being seen by motorists is greater in the day than at night.

Point 3: Similar to daytime cycling - positioning, anticipation, reaction. For example, if I'm rounding a blind left hand bend on a single track lane, I might position myself so that I (or my light) will be seen as soon as possible by anyone coming the other way by going over to the right (rather than tuck well into the left) but also without making it difficult for me to immediately tuck tight into the left if someone does come round the bend in front of me. Of course, every bend is different and that might not be suitable for some of them.

I also choose my routes to try to avoid roads which I consider to be higher risk, and at the times that I consider the risks to be higher (fast country lanes with pubs on them at closing time, busy junctions near schools at school finishing time, busy long straight A roads, etc.)

EDIT: Point 2 - I also have reflective tyre walls.

mjr's point about letting vehicles pass is a good one.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
Vorpal
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 10:23am Thanks.

It would be great if you could post a demonstration for the sort that you're describing.

Jonathan
There aren't any. At least not accurate ones, because this varies considerably from one vehicle to another. There are lots of design parameters that affect the visibility from a cab. In theory, there are not actually any blind spots, as long as a driver is aware of where visibility is limited & *moves* to look in those places. Of course, blocking them with GPS unit phones, or just not looking are problematic. This is complicated by that some of the regulations control for very limited aspects. Other parameters are not directly controlled at all. For example, the A pillar location relative to a theoretical driver's eye has a requirement, including how much area outside of the cab it covers, but there are no direct requirements on how thick it can be. The thickness is driven by structural requirements (where thicker is better).

This is one of the reasons for the 'direct vision' approach, which has been implemented in London.

This video from Loughborough University shows some of the areas of visibility & explains their role in direct vision https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD9YSAoPD_0

This is an article about Direct Vision https://road.cc/content/news/tfls-direc ... ect-281291
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Jdsk
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 1:02pmThis is one of the reasons for the 'direct vision' approach, which has been implemented in London.
Thanks.

I'm impressed by what I see coming out of London, eg:
"HGV safety permit guidance for operators entering London":
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/hgv-safety-p ... london.pdf

Jonathan
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freiston
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Re: Lanes, Lights and High-Cab Lorries

Post by freiston »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 1:08pm
Vorpal wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 1:02pmThis is one of the reasons for the 'direct vision' approach, which has been implemented in London.
Thanks.

I'm impressed by what I see coming out of London, eg:
"HGV safety permit guidance for operators entering London":
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/hgv-safety-p ... london.pdf

Jonathan
I am also impressed with this.

I found this graph interesting too - I didn't realise that the West Midlands fared so well, comparatively:
Screenshot from 2021-11-24 13-55-31.png
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
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