High end steel frames: are they worth it?

[Brucey]

you can go by reputation, materials used, quality of fit and finish. OTP frames (built with the same labour costs) are cheaper for a reason (or reasons) than handbuilt ones. Sometimes these reasons are fairly benign (like economies of scale) but other times they are not. The survival of a small outfit or a one-man band depends very much on keeping their customers happy and they ought to personally sort out any problems pdq. By contrast if a bike frame from a big brand breaks the most likely outcome is that the customer services people tug their collective forelocks (saying "how unusual" -whether it is or isn't) and give you a new frame. The breakage itself gets lost in the noise.

If a framebuilder with a reputation uses his staff to build frames with his name on them that is fairly normal and it isn't any great secret either. There have been a few frame builders that say 'Joe Bloggs' on the frame means 'Joe Bloggs' actually brazed it, but in many cases the frame was assembled and prepped by others and 'Joe Bloggs' ran around like a blue-backsided thingymajig and brazed up dozens of frames in a very short time. A bit like saying a certain celebrity chef 'made that cake' when all they did was put some of the icing on it.

In the case of the framebuilders that worked at Roberts they would all have been trained properly and (I think) all have their own businesses now, producing framesets that are of excellent quality in their own right. FWIW Chas senior learned his craft at Holdsworth, and Chas junior and Geoff learned it from their dad.

If you get a chance to see a frame without the paint on, this can tell you plenty about how the frame was built too.

cheers

[De Sisti]

If you get a chance to see a frame without the paint on, this can tell you plenty about how the frame was built too.
cheers

How so?

[Brucey]

shore lines and how the lugs etc have been filed, mainly.

cheers

[peetee]

Completely agree with Brucey. Anyone who knows me would say to a newbie "for god's sake don't get him started on frames". So to cut a long story short, My off the peg 531cs Holdsworth frame used to flap around under hard pedalling. Out the saddle on a steep climb it felt like it was made out of wet toilet roll tubes. It was replaced with a custom 531 pro from Rick Powell which, despite being made from lighter guage tubing, responded much better under load. It ain't what you use its the way that you use it.
On a related note, once upon a time the must-have in a quality frameset was a set of Cinelli cast lugs. What many customers didn't realise was that to insist on those wasn't always a wise move. Cast lugs have little to no scope of adjustment for differences in tube angles - and these will vary from frame to frame. It was very likely that a suitable geometry for you as a customer was at odds with what was available from Cinelli. Nevertheless, the kudos persisted at odds with common sense. I have an 853 Claude Butler frame. Hideous blue and white fade paintjob that does it's best to draw attention away from delicious, cast webbed lugs. However, upon closer inspection the 'one size fits all' seat lug has integrated seat stay sleeves that are about 5-10 degrees out from the tubes that fit in to them!

[Sweep]

I have a Dawes tandem and rear BB shell (which takes twice the load of one on a normal bike) is as slack as a wizard's sleeve; I have to bond cups into it to make them secure; torque alone won't (safely) do it.

I fear you have taken your wizard's sleeve reference from somewhere else brucey.

Let's stick to cycling.

[Bmblbzzz]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think PH makes a good point when he says that Longstaff include items like cast lugs for which you would pay extra at Mercian - a point made to me by Lance at Longstaff.

In terms of riding performance I'd agree that it's difficult to tell the difference between the imported stuff, which is far cheaper, and the handmade. My most recent frame is a s/h Condor heritage tourer which I suspect is made in Taiwan. It rides well and has some nifty features like direct fit mudguards and good tyre clearances. But to my mind it doesn't look as good as traditional frames.

There is a point of principle about made in Britain and it being handmade to which you do or do not subscribe. At least there's a good choice for all of us, assuming you can afford a good quality bike in these straightened times.

David

Hello,
An old thread!
The Condor Heritage is actually manufactured in Italy by craftsmen.
Regards,
John

Are Italian craftsmen better than Taiwanese craftsmen, or superior?

[garygkn]

It's the process of the building not where the people originate.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my Moto G (4) using hovercraft full of eels.

[Bmblbzzz]

It's the process of the building not where the people originate.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my Moto G (4) using hovercraft full of eels.

Yes (and the process of building encompasses everything from first design through to QC). Which is why it's meaningless, in quality terms, to distinguish between "Taiwan" and "Italian craftsmen" (obviously you can consider things like environmental cost of transport and supporting local communities, but those are not intrinsically quality-bearing).

I've a couple of friends with Condor frames (bought as frames not complete bikes) and they seem very good. But they're not really built by "craftsmen" in the sense that a Mercian or the OP's Longstaff is; they're built, with care and from a good design, to set sizes and designs, in a factory. They're better than the majority of what comes out of Taiwan for the same reason they're better than the majority of what used to come out of Britain or Italy – they're high quality products at a high price. But they could be made in Taiwan and be none the worse for it, as many bikes of similar quality are.

[Freddie]

If anyone is interested, it seems Bob Jackson are only doing off-the-peg frames now due to high order volume.

[JakobW]

I think that's been the case for a while now; AIUI they would still do you a semi-custom frame (basically standard frames and sizes with geometry tweaks), but they may have stopped doing even those.

[Freddie]

Given the prices, their off-the-peg frames fill a niche between £400 far east frames and £1000+ fully custom ones. I imagine they have decided to concentrate on supplying that niche.

[landsurfer]

I've had some lovely frames in the past, Holdsworth, Raleigh, Carlton, all nice 531 road frames.
My 2 current bikes both have 725 frames manufactured in Taiwan (Jamis and SPA (?)). These frames are comfortable, well finished and were reasonably priced.
I don't see the advantage of throwing loads of cash at a bespoke frame.

[Chris Jeggo]

I like my Paul Hewitt Cheviot SE touring bike with its Taiwan-built Reynolds 725 frame. My oldest bike is a custom Roberts 531 with Nervex Professional lugs so I prefer its looks, but there's nothing to choose between them so far as riding is concerned.
My son has lived in Taiwan for around ten years and I have visited a good few times and cycled there. It's a great place with great people and I am very happy to buy Taiwanese cycling kit.

[fastpedaller]

I've had some lovely frames in the past, Holdsworth, Raleigh, Carlton, all nice 531 road frames.
My 2 current bikes both have 725 frames manufactured in Taiwan (Jamis and SPA (?)). These frames are comfortable, well finished and were reasonably priced.
I don't see the advantage of throwing loads of cash at a bespoke frame.

I have a Spa tourer and On-One Pompino - they have similarities of construction that suggest they may have emerged from the same factory? 2 things they do have in common are perfect threads and perfect alignment. I agree with "I don't see the advantage of throwing loads of cash at a bespoke frame", but if the rider isn't in the 85th percentile (size) or has special requirements, or indeed just fancies spending his/her money on an item that gives them an added joy, I can see the benefit.

[landsurfer]

I have a Spa tourer and On-One Pompino - they have similarities of construction that suggest they may have emerged from the same factory? 2 things they do have in common are perfect threads and perfect alignment.
I agree with "I don't see the advantage of throwing loads of cash at a bespoke frame", but if the rider isn't in the 85th percentile (size) or has special requirements, or indeed just fancies spending his/her money on an item that gives them an added joy, I can see the benefit.

I genuinely understand the joy of ownership, i have been known to stroke my SPA when i think i'm not being watched.
The Jamis and SPA frame have the same pump mount, in the same place on the rear of the headstock ...
Although of very different construction, the SPA is a toughened frame, there are similarities.
I am well out of the 85th percentile size at 6' 3" and 110kg and the SPA and Jamis range accommodate me without effort.

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