High end steel frames: are they worth it?

[Si]

Ten years on...blimey.

My quality British built steel frame is still going strong, although these days is more likely to be taken on out vintage rides....

[PH]

What is interesting is that almost ten years on, you'll likely not get any change from £1000 for a stock (non-custom) Mercian and probably the same for an Ellis Briggs (there are no prices on their website). I don't know how much the costs have gone up in ten years, but can they really have more than doubled?

I don't think they have, I think the OP had it wrong, I wasn't sure just what they were comparing, which I pointed out at the time.
In 2004 I visited Mercian and discussed getting a tourer made in 725, cost with the appropriate braze ons was around £720 (Note the website used to show priced without VAT) current price 14 years later is £1,100. Mercian haven't really grabbed the hipster market in a way some others have, they haven't really chased it, with full order books and long waiting lists they've no need to. They have done well in the US, though they were promoting themselves there before the recent trends.
You're behind the times re hipsters, they've moved on from old steel fixed to adventure racing gravel, if you want to see frame builders who've captured this, with prices to match, look at the likes of Mason and Feather.

EDIT - Correct Mercian 2014 price

[colin54]

I'm not sure if they are existing in some other form

but I saw that Ellis - Briggs went into liquidation in May

https://road.cc/content/news/241129-fam ... iquidation

Bob Jackson's still look good value,Audax f&f in 631 £565, World Tour in 631 oversize £ 645, there are

always little extras to push the price up of course

http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/produ ... eg-frames/

[Freddie]

What is interesting is that almost ten years on, you'll likely not get any change from £1000 for a stock (non-custom) Mercian and probably the same for an Ellis Briggs (there are no prices on their website). I don't know how much the costs have gone up in ten years, but can they really have more than doubled?

I don't think they have, I think the OP had it wrong, I wasn't sure just what they were comparing, which I pointed out at the time.
In 2004 I visited Mercian and discussed getting a tourer made in 725, cost with the appropriate braze ons was around £800 (Note the website used to show priced without VAT) current price 14 years later is £1,100.

I see. Still, I think given that wages haven't risen in any real sense in the past 10 years, £1000+ for a frame might be pushing it for many people. How many hours does it take to build a typical frame? It could be that a number of framebuilders were underpricing their frames in the mid noughties, but for £1K+ you might as well put in the extra for some S&S couplers and have a pretty good idea that what you want isn't available off the shelf.

I suppose if the build books are full, it would be silly to think prices would go down.

[peetee]

I'm not sure if they are existing in some other form

but I saw that Ellis - Briggs went into liquidation in May

/

Further discussion online poo pooed that when I read into it. I called them this week and they are still trading.

[PH]

How many hours does it take to build a typical frame? It could be that a number of framebuilders were underpricing their frames in the mid noughties, but for £1K+ you might as well put in the extra for some S&S couplers and have a pretty good idea that what you want isn't available off the shelf.

I've seen Dave Yates say it takes a good man a good day to build a good frame. But I suppose it varies with just how original you want it to be, I've no idea of the time that could be spent filling fancy lugs, or even talking to a customer with specific requirements. I don't get caught up in the off the peg Vs custom thing, I'd have no qualms about paying to have something built if what I wanted wasn't available otherwise, or in spending the sort of money that would buy custom on something OTP if it was what I wanted. I've done both.

[PH]

I'm not sure if they are existing in some other form

but I saw that Ellis - Briggs went into liquidation in May

/

Further discussion online poor pooed that when I read into it. I called them this week and they are still trading.

Glad they survived, though going into liquidation is a matter of public record.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3005998/

[peetee]

Thank you for clarifying the facts. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if Google returns could be sorted into 'true' and 'false'?

[PH]

Thank you for clarifying the facts. Wouldn't it be a lot easier if Google returns could be sorted into 'true' and 'false'?

Ha, yes. The London Gazette was set up in the 17th century as "An alternative to scurrilous gossip and rumour" nothing has changed.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/history

[Gattonero]

... How many hours does it take to build a typical frame? It could be that a number of framebuilders were underpricing their frames in the mid noughties, but for £1K+ you might as well put in the extra for some S&S couplers and have a pretty good idea that what you want isn't available off the shelf.

I suppose if the build books are full, it would be silly to think prices would go down.

Both lugged and Tig welded frames will require their time, which varies accordingly to the level of the manufacturer's facilities. The average custom framebuilder won't have a stash of "pre-mitered" tubing and lugs that are already processed. So you're looking to 10hrs as a minimum for a good frame made by a skilled builder. Plus you need the full prep for sundries/painting, then the painting process.
Bear in mind that sundries can add a significant amount, if they are quality ones: one of the framebuilders I knew, would use only stainless-steel parts machined to his request and this would cost about 200 euros alone.

[hondated]

How many hours does it take to build a typical frame? It could be that a number of framebuilders were underpricing their frames in the mid noughties, but for £1K+ you might as well put in the extra for some S&S couplers and have a pretty good idea that what you want isn't available off the shelf.

I've seen Dave Yates say it takes a good man a good day to build a good frame. But I suppose it varies with just how original you want it to be, I've no idea of the time that could be spent filling fancy lugs, or even talking to a customer with specific requirements. I don't get caught up in the off the peg Vs custom thing, I'd have no qualms about paying to have something built if what I wanted wasn't available otherwise, or in spending the sort of money that would buy custom on something OTP if it was what I wanted. I've done both.

Having had a Tourer built by Roberts I really question whether it was worth the money I paid for it Mainly because I am a normal size person and I could of saved myself a heck of a lot of money by just buying a Dawes Galaxy. Now thats not Roberts fault but rather mine in being so stupid in the way that I spent my money.
How many hours does it take to build a typical frame?

I've seen Dave Yates say it takes a good man a good day to build a good frame.
Both a fair question and statement in my opinion as I have often wondered how long my frame took to make. Which incidentally was made by employees of Roberts rather than by himself or indeed his brother Geoff or their father who's reputation the company was built on.
So to Dave Yates statement who would he consider to be a " good man ".
I would advice anyone to give it a lot of consideration before buying a hand built bike or frame as none of them are cheap in my opinion.
That said I would also advice them, if they are considering buying a " pricey" bike from a shop and have very little knowledge of what to buy to seek advice frm friends and colleagues that do have that knowledge as I recently met a very nice young fella that had brought a top end Specialised bike that was discounted and for him the frame was clearly too big, as the seat was low, the stem was too long, and the front chain rings were 53, 39 and he mentioned how he was struggling on the hills. He'd also brought it from a reputable dealer.

Not far different from when I too was naive on what to buy when I brought my Bianchi from another reputable dealer.

Why is it that if I walked into any bike shop tomorrow morning to buy a bike I would have to buy one that has the wrong width bars fitted and also probably the wrong stem length fitted. Someting it would cost me money to change.

[Gattonero]

That's exactly why you won't buy a nice suit from Primark, right?
A good framebuilder (or a good shop) gives you all this information, just like a good taylor won't let you leave the premises with a jacket that looks borrowed from your bigger brother

[Brucey]

if you bought a lugged and brazed Dawes galaxy (say) it would certainly not compare to a proper handbuilt frame. It might look similar but beneath the skin there would be numerous differences.

For example for years Dawes used BB shells that were so poorly toleranced you could screw the cups in using your fingers even if there was a coat of paint left in the threads. They did this to save on having to clean the threads up after the frame was brazed. Needless to say such BB shells suffer stripped threads far more easily. I have a Dawes tandem and rear BB shell (which takes twice the load of one on a normal bike) is as slack as a wizard's sleeve; I have to bond cups into it to make them secure; torque alone won't (safely) do it.

Another difference is that the tubes are not properly mitred in many of the more mass-produced frames. This means that the lower head lug sees the full load applied (whereas in a handbuilt frame the tubes are properly mitred and share the bending load in the joint). Ah, but surely that is 'good enough' I hear you say...? Well it isn't; such frames are noticeably floppier to ride on (and are more likely to shimmy etc) and breakages at the lower head lug on such frames are commonplace. It really doesn't matter if you build in ST tubing or whatever, effectively you have engineered a frame with a (breakable) hinge in the middle of it.....

BTW there is no such thing as a 'normal sized human being' any more than there is a 'normal pair of shoes'. You should expect to have to buy different parts to put on your bike so that it fits you properly, to account for your tastes, not to mention cope with the vagaries of fashion....

cheers

[Gattonero]

And we're not even going down the path of "give it a twist, he'd be allright" when the frame wasn't decently straight after brazing/welding (or someone had left open that high window that was used as sight for alignment check....! )

[Freddie]

How much of this can the typical person check, Brucey? It sounds like one has to go off reputation and, much like buying meat from the local butcher, hope that what you are told is as described.

Seeing as the average person cannot gain access to a framebuilder's workshop, nor has the knowledge to discern good, from great, from excellent workmanship, how to choose a framebuilder...stick some names in a hat and pick one out?