Mudguards causing accidents....

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Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Salade_Lyonnaise » 2 Aug 2019, 1:26pm

A bit of an old topic I realise, but for those of us who've had accident and still cycle, safety becomes no.1!

How do these guards look to everyone? They're alloy and seem to have safety clips, plus I guess the stays can be bent to fit higher up the fork/rear rack.

And what is everyone's opinion regarding aluminium/alloy vs plastic guards? The stiffer the better?

https://www.bankruptbikeparts.co.uk/ful ... rue&page=5

Opinions appreciated.

Brucey
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Brucey » 2 Aug 2019, 2:37pm

those look like NOS Spencer mudguards to me. They are OK (and lighter than many alternatives BTW) but the zinc plating on the brackets riveted to the mudguards isn't very thick. There's only one set of stays on the front mudguard too. Opinion is divided as to whether it is OK to fit such mudguards without Secu-clips or not. Plenty of manufacturers fit similar metal mudguards without secu clips but I don't think it is a bad idea to add them. If the clearances are generous then there is less risk too.

With any metal mudguard the risk of the guard crumpling is a lot less, but the consequences if they do crumple can likewise be worse.

cheers
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Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Salade_Lyonnaise » 2 Aug 2019, 2:45pm

Brucey wrote:those look like NOS Spencer mudguards to me. They are OK (and lighter than many alternatives BTW) but the zinc plating on the brackets riveted to the mudguards isn't very thick. There's only one set of stays on the front mudguard too. Opinion is divided as to whether it is OK to fit such mudguards without Secu-clips or not. Plenty of manufacturers fit similar metal mudguards without secu clips but I don't think it is a bad idea to add them. If the clearances are generous then there is less risk too.

With any metal mudguard the risk of the guard crumpling is a lot less, but the consequences if they do crumple can likewise be worse.

cheers


Thanks Brucey – so I would definitely fit secu-clips, and also mount the stays higher up the forks...that seems to cover all bases I guess?

Is there a 'safest' type of mudguard on the market (for wide tyres). Are the they mtb type guards a better bet?

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CJ
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby CJ » 2 Aug 2019, 10:43pm

Brucey wrote:With any metal mudguard the risk of the guard crumpling is a lot less...

I don't think so. Steel mudguards, of the 'Raleigh All Steel Bicycle' era, are admittedly so stiff as to be nigh impossible to crumple and certainly don't need more than one pair of stays. But aluminium alloy of the Spencer and Salmon variety, plus those that came on my Cannondale trekking bike that I cannot now remember the brand of, crumple just as easily as 'Chromoplastics' - with similarly awful results! Alloy front guards really do need safety-release fittings.
Chris Juden
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Brucey
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Brucey » 3 Aug 2019, 9:48am

If you get an object caught in the front wheel/tyre and it gets carried into the mudguard then the strength of that object/how well it is attached to the wheel at first dukes it out with the strength of the mudguard. No mudguard is proof against every eventuality but stronger mudguards will shrug off minor things that feeble mudguards won't; for example small twigs can either simply break or cause the mudguard to bend and then crumple, depending on how strong the mudguard is. However once the stays 'bite' into the tyre (if there is no safety release) it doesn't matter what caused the jam any more, the effects will be the same.

I broke my first mudguard over forty years ago and at the time I was very disappointed, and wished for a stronger mudguard. In hindsight its not that simple. I ran over a hedge cutting with my front wheel, a short length of bramble, and this thing (not even deserving the title of 'twig') was enough to cause the front mudguard (Bluemels Celluloid) to shatter (at least it didn't crumple, hitting the down tube and tipping me off that way). The mudguard was brand new, less than two miles old!

Some mudguards are exceedingly feeble and these are more likely to crumple. Does anyone else remember 'poker' mudguards? They were a right gamble alright, being made of a chromoplastic type material which was much less stiff than normal and only one set of stays on the front mudguard to boot.

The unstoppable force can meet the immovable object; I've even seen the strongest steel mudguards crumple. It took something exceptional to do it but likewise the outcome was pretty exceptional (in a bad way) too.

So yes, I prefer generous clearances, twin stays on most front mudguards and safety releases too, but its all on a spectrum; there's no such thing as perfect safety; after all you can get things that will jam mudguardless wheels too.

Q. does anyone have any better ideas for making a release action on a 'pinch bolt' (daruma) type stay fixing? I'm thinking of GB, VO, Honjos etc. I (think I ) mooted the idea upthread that a spring washer in the pinch action might (if used correctly) provide a smaller prevailing force than normal and perhaps allow the stays to 'pull through' rather than jam, but I'm by no means confident that it would always work with a low enough force. Maybe there is a better adaptation?

cheers
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reohn2
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby reohn2 » 3 Aug 2019, 9:58am

A better way of front mudguard fitting(click on the image for a bigger pic)
20190722_194206.jpg
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Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Salade_Lyonnaise » 5 Aug 2019, 12:35pm

Brucey wrote:If you get an object caught...

Q. does anyone have any better ideas for making a release action on a 'pinch bolt' (daruma) type stay fixing? I'm thinking of GB, VO, Honjos etc. I (think I ) mooted the idea upthread that a spring washer in the pinch action might (if used correctly) provide a smaller prevailing force than normal and perhaps allow the stays to 'pull through' rather than jam, but I'm by no means confident that it would always work with a low enough force. Maybe there is a better adaptation?

cheers


Thanks for the replies. Adding To Brucey's questions above, what is the consensus on the safety of Gilles Berthoud mudguards, solid but no quick seculcip and one piece looped stays (are there third party secu-clip versions for straight stay ends?)

PH
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby PH » 5 Aug 2019, 12:49pm

Brucey wrote:Q. does anyone have any better ideas for making a release action on a 'pinch bolt' (daruma) type stay fixing? I'm thinking of GB, VO, Honjos etc. I (think I ) mooted the idea upthread that a spring washer in the pinch action might (if used correctly) provide a smaller prevailing force than normal and perhaps allow the stays to 'pull through' rather than jam, but I'm by no means confident that it would always work with a low enough force. Maybe there is a better adaptation?

cheers

The stays from the SKS Velo models could possibly be used, they're available as spares at a price that might be worth experimenting with (Around £6)
Stay.jpg

A vid of how they work in case it isn't clear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGaSMlUt0kg

Brucey
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Brucey » 6 Aug 2019, 12:08am

Interesting idea; however am I right in thinking that the release action is a variant on bluemels ASR?

If so I have no quibble about the safety aspect, but IME these little blighters

a) break as often as they release cleanly

b) cannot be adjusted for fit (unlike secu-clips) and

c) just to rub salt into the wounds they cost about £2 each

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mudguards/sks-bluemels-stay-clip/

I'd have more time for them if they were sold in bags of ten, a quid a bag, (and they would still make money BTW).

Not sure how well that could be made to work with 4mm aluminium stays and daruma bolts at the dropout eyelets too...?

cheers
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PH
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby PH » 6 Aug 2019, 11:31am

Brucey wrote:Interesting idea; however am I right in thinking that the release action is a variant on bluemels ASR?

cheers

I don't think they are the same, did you watch the vid?
There may be some confusion as I don't understand what's meant by "daruma bolts"
As for fitting, I think you could probably use the existing stays and just replace the attachment, which would also take care of being able to adjust to size. Following on from you SJS link, I see you can get these fittings without the stays, £6 for 6
stays 2.jpg

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mudguards/s ... pack-of-6/

I have them on the intended mudguards on a folder, I haven't had anything that tested the release, though they are OK guards in all other ways.

Brucey
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Brucey » 6 Aug 2019, 11:49am

I think I posted this photo already upthread

Image

but it shows a daruma bolt as is commonly used in mudguard fixings for various species of aluminium mudguards. My query was really to see if there is a good scheme for converting this type of fitting to a safety release; I was wondering if a spring washer might give a lower clamping force and a controlled release but I'm not sure it would be consistent enough.


The SKS 'esc' fittings look OK but they presumably only work with 4.5mm stays (if the blurb is correct). How does the release action feel? Do you think the fitting will wear with repeated releases? Another possible issue is that the crevice between the parts will, over time, fill up with dirt and possibly impede the release action. I shall be interested to hear how you get on with them. £6 for six sounds not too bad ( a set of four plus two for breakages) much better than £2 each for these ASR inserts

Image

cheers
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PH
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby PH » 6 Aug 2019, 12:12pm

Brucey wrote:shows a daruma bolt as is commonly used in mudguard fixings for various species of aluminium mudguards.
cheers

Got it, thanks, I haven't had any guards with that sort of fitting, the GB's I had were a P clip type.
My query was really to see if there is a good scheme for converting this type of fitting to a safety release;

Yes, my answer was more about replacing with...
The SKS 'esc' fittings look OK but they presumably only work with 4.5mm stays (if the blurb is correct). How does the release action feel? Do you think the fitting will wear with repeated releases? Another possible issue is that the crevice between the parts will, over time, fill up with dirt and possibly impede the release action. I shall be interested to hear how you get on with them.

Yes 4.5mm, but the stay only needs fitting once, so slightly different sizes could be made to fit without it interfering with the release action.
Release action feels firm, about the same force as other SKS products I've had, though the action is different, the guard needs to be rotating. I would expect repeated releases to wear them, though if they work I wouldn't really mind a quid a go even if they were single use. I only have a single stay and the rear is attached to the rack, so I have a spare pair already. I have to remove the guard for a full fold and I'll remove completely to preserve them. I'll keep an eye out for them getting dirty. Will report back if and when there's anything to report.

Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Salade_Lyonnaise » 6 Aug 2019, 5:22pm

Are the SKS Velo guards safe, as the u-stays fit underneath the guard as opposed to over. And the notch that the u-bend slots into is facing the direction of travel of the wheel? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svWoqITQei8

PH
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby PH » 6 Aug 2019, 6:13pm

Salade_Lyonnaise wrote:Are the SKS Velo guards safe, as the u-stays fit underneath the guard as opposed to over. And the notch that the u-bend slots into is facing the direction of travel of the wheel? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svWoqITQei8

Taking on board the comment above that no guard is completely safe - I feel these are as safe as any other I've used. They're a fairly rigid, stiffer than traditional SKS guards, plus they're short and designed for smaller wheels. The stays are an additional extra, so presumably they're designed to be fitted without any, though I'd be less comfortable doing so. The stay fits into a substantial plastic clip, with a lip, it's not coming out without manipulation or breaking the clip, probably the same sort of force that would break any plastic guard.

Salade_Lyonnaise
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Re: Mudguards causing accidents....

Postby Salade_Lyonnaise » 6 Aug 2019, 6:51pm

PH wrote: Taking on board the comment above that no guard is completely safe - I feel these are as safe as any other I've used...


Great, thanks PH. I'm thinking of using the SKS Velo stays you suggested, and fitting them to stainless steel guards, the mechanism seems pretty good :D