Sorry, another brooks question

[jazzkat]

I've done quite a bit of research on the web so this question is to ask "from the horses mouth" so to speak.

I'm having some discomfort from my saddle when I cycle any distance, say over ten miles. It's not pain as such, just uncomfortable. Also I get some discomfort in my feet (pins and needles) and sometimes the back of my knee. The various feelings go quickly after a short stop, which makes me think it is all saddle related. I'm hoping to do some sportives this year so want to be more comfortable over the miles.

So...I am considering a brooks saddle. It's to go on my Trek 1.7, so I want something on the sporty looking/feeling side of things
Anyway... there's little info on the brooks website about how they fit or the shape of them. I'm looking towards the Swallow, swift, B17 narrow, Team pro.
My big question is do they have a different fit? i.e. do I need to get measured? are they for different sizings or kind of the same, just different styling?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but everyone raves about the long term comfort of brooks, yet there is little real info about (other than anecdotal) and its a heck of a lot of money just to give it a go.

Thanks in advice

[Tako]

Discomfort in your feet and knees sounds more like saddle height and fore-aft position rather than your choice of saddle. I would look at your position first as cycling 10miles shouldn't be uncomfortable.

Re: Brooks choice. The short answer is you will just have to choose one and ride it for a while to see if it suits. The B17 is a good place to start!

[pherron]

I answer to your question, they are different styles but some are more comfortable than others depending on your preference. I don't think there is an easy way or any measuring to determine what suits you. I own the Swallow and B17 narrow and don't really find either as good as the B17 standard - this is THE saddle for me.

However all that said I have to agree with Tako - I think what you are describing sounds like your bike isn't quite set up right for you.

[jazzkat]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I think my saddle is in a good position - Knee over the pedal half way down the stroke, leg almost straight (but not locked out) at the bottom of the stroke.
The discomfort comes if I've been sat in the saddle for a good portion of the ride, its not so bad if I've been out of the saddle a bit on my ride (occaisional up hill blast etc). It's why I think its the saddle rather than the position.

[thirdcrank]

I think the others are right that if you are getting knee trouble it's more likely to be the height of the saddle than anything about the saddle itself. In general, I think if you are feeling the hamstrings it's because the saddle is too high. If the saddle is too low you can end up with your knees being closed up too much at the top of the pedal stroke. That can also come from the cranks being too long. The standard advice for saddle height is straight leg with the heel on the pedal in heel-less cycling shoes, not easy without the right shoes. Have a look in shop windows as you ride past. Your knee still needs to be bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke if you are pedalling with the ball of the foot. Another source of knee trouble is badly placed cleats. Bent pedal spindles are also said to cause knee problems.

I think the foot thing is a bit harder to diagnose. I've had something similar to what you describe after a longish ride in warm weather using SPDs. I have wondered if it's something to do with feet swelling a bit in the heat, combined with the pressure from the SPD cleat being concentrated on one spot. Racing pedals tend to be designed to spread the pressure over more of the sole and are used with more rigid soles for the same reason.

[julk]

The discomfort comes if I've been sat in the saddle for a good portion of the ride, its not so bad if I've been out of the saddle a bit on my ride (occaisional up hill blast etc).

One of my sons was displaying this discomfort, relieved by riding out of the saddle. On checking his sit bone width it was obvious his existing saddle was too narrow.
A Brooks B17 was purchased - it is wider and is now in blissful use by him.

[richardyorkshire]

The main nerve for your leg (the sciatic nerve) leaves the base of the spine, passes through the back of the pelvis, outside the sit bones, through your buttock and then down the centre of your thigh and through the back of the knee. So it is plausible that a saddle of an unsympathetic size or shape could be affecting the nerve at some point and leading to the tingling in leg or foot.

A saddle that is too narrow would rest between the sit bones and irritate the tissue. The tissue could become inflamed and possibly affect the nerve. A saddle too wide might lead to pressure outside the sit bones, which is where the nerve passes. A saddle the right width would be just wide enough to support your sit bones, with no pressure either between the sit bones or outside them.

So I suspect it is more about the width of your saddle than the make. Have you been measured up for a saddle? My local cycle shop measured me up by getting me to sit on a soft pad, in which an impression was left by my sit bones. They then measured the distance between the two dimples.

[jazzkat]

I think the others are right that if you are getting knee trouble it's more likely to be the height of the saddle than anything about the saddle itself. In general, I think if you are feeling the hamstrings it's because the saddle is too high. If the saddle is too low you can end up with your knees being closed up too much at the top of the pedal stroke. That can also come from the cranks being too long. The standard advice for saddle height is straight leg with the heel on the pedal in heel-less cycling shoes, not easy without the right shoes. Have a look in shop windows as you ride past. Your knee still needs to be bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke if you are pedalling with the ball of the foot. Another source of knee trouble is badly placed cleats. Bent pedal spindles are also said to cause knee problems.

I think the foot thing is a bit harder to diagnose. I've had something similar to what you describe after a longish ride in warm weather using SPDs. I have wondered if it's something to do with feet swelling a bit in the heat, combined with the pressure from the SPD cleat being concentrated on one spot. Racing pedals tend to be designed to spread the pressure over more of the sole and are used with more rigid soles for the same reason.

Thanks thirdcrank - It's not knee pain as such, more a "feeling" - I don't get it all the time and I can't pinpoint it to being in a muscle, a tendon or in the joint. It certainly isn't a strained muscle/tendon feeling- I did 30 odd miles yesterday no probs.
Your description is exactly how my legs are -heel on the pedal in my shoes etc . I'm using shimano road cycle shoes with yellow cleats so there is a bit of float. I have done 60 miles rides before with no real problems just the uncomfortable feeling from time to time. Maybe the pins and needles in the feet is just the shoes being fastened too tight and the "feeling" in the knee isn't related at all.
Thanks for the suggestions

One of my sons was displaying this discomfort, relieved by riding out of the saddle. On checking his sit bone width it was obvious his existing saddle was too narrow.
A Brooks B17 was purchased - it is wider and is now in blissful use by him.

How did you check the width?

edit - cross post

[jazzkat]

The main nerve for your leg (the sciatic nerve) leaves the base of the spine, passes through the back of the pelvis, outside the sit bones, through your buttock and then down the centre of your thigh and through the back of the knee. So it is plausible that a saddle of an unsympathetic size or shape could be affecting the nerve at some point and leading to the tingling in leg or foot.

A saddle that is too narrow would rest between the sit bones and irritate the tissue. The tissue could become inflamed and possibly affect the nerve. A saddle too wide might lead to pressure outside the sit bones, which is where the nerve passes. A saddle the right width would be just wide enough to support your sit bones, with no pressure either between the sit bones or outside them.

So I suspect it is more about the width of your saddle than the make. Have you been measured up for a saddle? My local cycle shop measured me up by getting me to sit on a soft pad, in which an impression was left by my sit bones. They then measured the distance between the two dimples.

A trip to the LBS then

[simonineaston]

I answer this Q. as a long-term Brooks user. They're like good-quality leather shoes... different people recommend different types... often, no 2 users can agree on the successful "recipe". Over 3 decades, I have tried loads of different Brooks - some brand new, some distinctly 2nd (3rd, even) hand. I'm 9 1/2 stone/5' 10" and don't have enough weight/patience to break in any of the Pro-type models (thicker leather). And believe me, I've tried! (After about 3 years, I nearly got there with one, but the bloomin' thing got knicked.)
The best-est ever was a gorgeous B72 (I think) I bought from a very elderly Moultoneer - it simply "wasn't there" - at least, that's how it felt. Eventually, one half of the chrome twin-rails broke. I want it back.
On the other hand, I wouldn't swap the B17s I now use for a Big Pig. I have them on all my bikes.
There - hope that helps!

[jazzkat]

Just got back from doing a 30 miler.
First ten miles- uncomfortable, not pain just uncomfortable. A couple of ache-y type feelings in right knee and ankle.
The first ten miles was pretty flat so I was in the saddle more. By ten miles my bum was aching, but it gets a bit hilly around here (understatement ) and so I was starting to get out of the saddle a bit more. Knee and ankle easing up (maybe I wasn't warmed up enough to start with?) By 20 miles everything ok. Last ten miles is more downhill (occasional out of the saddle blast) and the numb bum starts again.

I didn't fasten my shoes quite so tight today, but the pins and needles feeling in the feet was with me most of the way - however, I'm not totally sure that its just my feet getting cold - there's a lot of ventilation in my shoes and despite wearing thick seal skin socks they were pretty cold (not helped by the hailstorm I rode through)

Thanks Simon, I didn't realise the leather was thicker in the pro models, does that go for the swallow and swift do you know?
The B17 does come up again and again as the one to have. I don't know if it will look good on my bike though I know vanity v's comfort

Nice Les Paul Junior in your avatar btw!

[thirdcrank]

I think the point about the Brooks Swallow is that it's always been a rock-hard design. The relatively broad back is supposed to support your BTM - politely known as sit bones - and the cutaway front is supposed to minimise any chafing. For a regular cyclist, a hard saddle is no hardship, so to speak, but you do need someting that suits your own shape.

As for breaking in other designs of Brooks, this can be a bit of a lottery, depending on the individual saddle. Some are nice and supple from the outset others are very hard and tend to stay that way. If you are getting knee trouble which is relieved by standing on the pedals - which is really just another way of changing position, I'd still believe that your position is more likely to be the cause than the saddle. I'm no medic but pins-and-needles suggests to me either something affecting circulation such as tight shoes, or a trapped nerve (but I should have thought that would more likely be one-sided.)

[julk]

How did you check the width?

I have a large family and a fleet of bikes in the garage, so was able to offer some different saddles to try.
Son was reluctantly persuaded to try sitting on 'touring' saddles - his own was a nice super slim cut away 'racing' type which had fitted him as a youth, but no longer as he had grown to his full size.

Amazingly he found a wider saddle was comfortable over long distances.

Original saddle was 90-100mm wide where it offered some support, he is now riding needing 120-130mm width by the impressions his sit bones are leaving. It might not seem a big difference, but it has made long distance cycling enjoyable again for him.

[lynmorris]

Try a Brooks Imperial, thinner leather,cut outs on the top and holes in the side for lacing up if required.Yes it looks out of place on a modern machine but when you are sitting on it (and comfortable ) it can't be seen anyway.

[gilesjuk]

Note, there's a brooks for each purpose. For more upright riding you want a wider saddle.

I bought a Brooks B67 as it was only £36 in green at Chain reaction cycles. The ladies version was £25 on there too, the main difference is it is a little shorter. I use this on another bike and it's fine for men too