Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

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speedsixdave
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Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby speedsixdave » 1 Sep 2010, 4:06pm

Hello cocoa-tin-fans,

My father alerted me to this, which again looks like the holy grail of bicycle gears: http://www.pinion.eu/en/index.html

To summarise:

Frame-mounted bottom-bracket-style epicyclic
Requires special frame
18 gears
634% range (MickF!)
11.5% spacing
No weight
No price
No real reliability as yet
German-built.

If it's as good as a Rohloff it really could be the right thing for a touring bike or a tandem (17-108"). If it's not, it might be another white elephant. At the moment, of course, it's just what our computing friends call vapour-ware.

What do you reckon?
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willem jongman
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby willem jongman » 1 Sep 2010, 4:20pm

Fascinating. One drawback I can already see: a high q. You will ride like a duck.
Willem

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speedsixdave
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby speedsixdave » 1 Sep 2010, 4:30pm

You may be right, Willem. 178mm. What would a normal MTB triple be?
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mark a.
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby mark a. » 1 Sep 2010, 4:34pm

Certainly interesting and could be fantastic.

(It could also be hideously expensive, heavy, lossy, unreliable and all that jazz, but I'll wait to see what it's actually like.)

willem jongman
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby willem jongman » 1 Sep 2010, 4:55pm

Normal Shimano mtb cranks also have a large q, which is one of many reasons why I avoid them. The other end of the range is the new Velo Orange Grand Cru crankset, at 139 mm: http://www.velo-orange.com/grcru50cr.html
Willem

snibgo
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby snibgo » 1 Sep 2010, 5:09pm

Seems a great idea.

Can someone explain "Q factor", or point me to an explanation?

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andrew_s
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby andrew_s » 1 Sep 2010, 6:15pm

It's how far apart your pedals are, or would be if you reversed one of the cranks.
A narrow Q is generally better (see http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cranks.html#tread )
MTB cranks have a large Q because they have to leave room for fat tyres and mud.

willem jongman
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby willem jongman » 1 Sep 2010, 6:18pm

Q for quack as in sound made by ducks. How much do you sit like a duck? A measure of how far apart the pedals are. This has increased with wider rear hubs and beefier chainstays, plus lazy frame design and cranks makers who wan ttheir cranks to fit even the most ludicrously wide frames, to the extent that many now feel that pedals are too far apart. For me, the lower 150's are as much as I can tolerate.
Willem

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speedsixdave
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby speedsixdave » 1 Sep 2010, 6:29pm

'Q-factor' is the distance between the pedals. It varies according to bottom bracket shell width, bottom bracket axle length, and crank design. You may never notice it or it may drive you crazy, depending on your personal biodynamics. If you imagine how you walk, your feet probably swing quite close to one another as you process along. This would be a small - some would say ideal - Q-factor. If you imagine walking with one foot on either side of a 200mm-wide wooden plank, you would find this unnatural and possibly bad for you over a long distance. This is the equivalent of a large Q-factor.

The iconoclastic Graeme Obree was of the belief that a very narrow Q-factor was important in aerodynamics - knees close together when pedalling - and this was the real reason for the famous washing machine bearings in the ultra-narrow bottom bracket of his Old Faithful hour record bicycle. Obree was (is) a genius (probably in the truest sense of the term) and probably right. When Bianchi and others copied his bike, they used completely conventional bottom brackets, thus negating one of the major advantages of that design. They did not display genius*

I think (may be wrong on this) that the term Q-factor was coined by Tom Ritchey - before this it had no catchy name. The Q means nothing.

Old cranks often had narrow Q-factors, including the TA Cyclotouriste. Things that have contributed to Q-factor creep over the years include triple chainrings, wider rear hubs, better front derailleurs (which need more space between ring and crank), fatter tyres, and laziness. The chainset that Willem links to above is a copy of the TA Cyclotouriste / Stronglight 49D, but with subtle improvements including, as they point out, 3mm more room between outer ring and crank arm. It looks the work of a sensible designer, but does cost $185.

Other people have now answered this while I have been writing!

* although in their defence it is harder to get the narrow BB to work with derailleur gears.
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531colin
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby 531colin » 1 Sep 2010, 7:30pm

I have built a rear wheel for a downhill type bike which had a Rohloff hub gear mounted by the swinging arm pivot. A primary chain went from the chainwheel to the Rohloff, a secondary chain from the Rohloff to the wheel. ( I seem to have lapsed into motorcycle terminology....). As far as I remember, it didn't get much riding time, there was a problem with another part of the bike.

blackdog
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby blackdog » 2 Sep 2010, 2:12am

This looks excellent but it's hardly a new idea. There have been various incarnations of the 'gearbox' design over the years. The latest being the Universal Transmissions/Nicolai design.

Nicolai are a German company who build, largely, mountain bike frames with an excellent reputation. They're also the European agents for the Gates Carbon Drive belt transmission system.

I have to say that the Pinion design looks a lot less bulky in comparison and 'Made in Germany' seems like a great starting point.

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squeaker
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby squeaker » 2 Sep 2010, 9:18am

Could work well in the front boom of a recumbent - relatively small change to the design, but suspect more than small change needed to pay for the gearbox :lol:
"42"

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby [XAP]Bob » 2 Sep 2010, 9:31am

Combine it with a shaft drive - in the frame ..

That would be a seriously off looking bike :)
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swansonj
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby swansonj » 2 Sep 2010, 5:20pm

speedsixdave wrote:To summarise:

Frame-mounted bottom-bracket-style epicyclic


Sorry to be pedantic, but not sure it's an epicyclic - looks like two parallel shafts, as in car gearboxes.

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speedsixdave
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Re: Pinion 18-speed 'hub' gear

Postby speedsixdave » 2 Sep 2010, 5:52pm

swansonj wrote:
speedsixdave wrote:To summarise:

Frame-mounted bottom-bracket-style epicyclic


Sorry to be pedantic, but not sure it's an epicyclic - looks like two parallel shafts, as in car gearboxes.


You may well be right - I used the word without caution.

Interesting that 'Made in Germany' now has a similar status to what 'Made in England' reputedly once did.
Big wheels good, small wheels better.

Two saddles best!