Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

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greendragon
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby greendragon » 10 Nov 2010, 2:49am

Thank you Meic for that profound insight. :roll:

I don't know if hubgearfreak was also being flippant with his:
hubgearfreak wrote:
Mick F wrote: It's surprising how much bigger 27" is compared to 700c.

. . .
of course mick may have a point if you use stupidly narrow (20-25) tyres. 35-622 look fine :D

but this is just what I was thinking of doing! Not only was I rather inclined to agree with Mick about the appearance, but I prefer larger wheels too. I have an ancient (late 1950's) Rudge 'Pathfinder' ("badge engineered" Raleigh 'can't-remember-which-model') that, like iron-clover I was wondering about resurrecting. And I did fancy putting on 35-622s, since they do produce pretty much the same overall dia. as the good ole 27x1¼s.
The potential trouble with that is that, although there is sufficient width between the forks and stays to take such a much fatter tyre, replacement brakes wouldn't just need the 4mm longer reach, but would have to go quite a long way round too! :shock:

Given that rim brakes are so much more powerful these days than formerly, and so good at chewing their way through rims that seem more flimsy, I was wondering if it would be feasible to fit hub or disc brakes instead.
BUT . . are hub brakes lacking in power? And why don't people usually use discs on tourers? If the reason for this is that the forks need to be too rigid, as on an MTB, then how come Avid BB5s and BB7s come in a "road" variant as well as the "mountain" version?
And if the forks do have to be rigid, how does one get round the problem for a road bike so as not to need replacement wrist joints after every ride? :? :?:

irc
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby irc » 10 Nov 2010, 6:15am

greendragon wrote:Thank you Meic for that profound insight. :roll:

I don't know if hubgearfreak was also being flippant with his:
hubgearfreak wrote:
Mick F wrote: It's surprising how much bigger 27" is compared to 700c.

. . .
of course mick may have a point if you use stupidly narrow (20-25) tyres. 35-622 look fine :D

but this is just what I was thinking of doing! Not only was I rather inclined to agree with Mick about the appearance, but I prefer larger wheels too. I have an ancient (late 1950's) Rudge 'Pathfinder' ("badge engineered" Raleigh 'can't-remember-which-model') that, like iron-clover I was wondering about resurrecting. And I did fancy putting on 35-622s, since they do produce pretty much the same overall dia. as the good ole 27x1¼s.
The potential trouble with that is that, although there is sufficient width between the forks and stays to take such a much fatter tyre, replacement brakes wouldn't just need the 4mm longer reach, but would have to go quite a long way round too! :shock:

Given that rim brakes are so much more powerful these days than formerly, and so good at chewing their way through rims that seem more flimsy, I was wondering if it would be feasible to fit hub or disc brakes instead.
BUT . . are hub brakes lacking in power? And why don't people usually use discs on tourers? If the reason for this is that the forks need to be too rigid, as on an MTB, then how come Avid BB5s and BB7s come in a "road" variant as well as the "mountain" version?
And if the forks do have to be rigid, how does one get round the problem for a road bike so as not to need replacement wrist joints after every ride? :? :?:


Fatter tyres are part of the answer. One bike I use has a Kona P2 fork deseigned to be used with either discs or rim brakes. Running 2" tyres I don't notice the stiffness. On the otyher hand when I replaced my Galaxy with a LOng Haul Trucker I imediately felt the harsher ride through the stiffer fork on the LHT. Or to be exact felt it riding unloaded. Fully loaded the LHT smooths out.
No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

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531colin
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby 531colin » 10 Nov 2010, 8:04am

And the LHT is built for cantis.....AFAIK

........Image

GavinC
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby GavinC » 10 Nov 2010, 9:12am

greendragon wrote: I have an ancient (late 1950's) Rudge 'Pathfinder' ("badge engineered" Raleigh 'can't-remember-which-model') that, like iron-clover I was wondering about resurrecting. And I did fancy putting on 35-622s, since they do produce pretty much the same overall dia. as the good ole 27x1¼s.
The potential trouble with that is that, although there is sufficient width between the forks and stays to take such a much fatter tyre, replacement brakes wouldn't just need the 4mm longer reach, but would have to go quite a long way round too! :shock:

I use Weinmann 610/750 centre pull brakes on a frame originally designed for 27" wheels but now fitted with 700c wheels and 35mm tyres. No problem at all.

Having said that, a Rudge Pathfinder is a badge enginnered Raleigh Lenton. These came with 26"x1 1/4 wheels/tyres - ETRO 597 - (although I believe 27" was an option on some models), so 700c would in fact be bigger than the originals and brakes would need 12.5mm less drop!

Gavin

thirdcrank
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Nov 2010, 9:20am

spark303 wrote:....I use Weinmann 610/750 centre pull brakes on a frame originally designed for 27" wheels but now fitted with 700c wheels and 35mm tyres. No problem ...
For anybody unfamiliar with this model of brake, and it's contemporary the MAFAC Racer, they had a good half-inch of verical adjustment on the brake shoes. OTOH, the braze-on bosses of other models tend to leave little waggle room.

greendragon
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby greendragon » 10 Nov 2010, 1:42pm

Thanks Gavin, yes the name 'Lenton' popped into my mind after I'd gone to bed - funny how the brain does such things! That said, the Lenton was really popular for several years around that time - there must have been tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of them around, and I'm sure they must have been available across the whole range of frame sizes. So perhaps it was the smaller sizes that came on 26" wheels. Certainly this 22½" frame Pathfinder has always ridden the old 'bog-standard' 27x1¼ tyres.
If I stay with rim brakes, I'll try and find some of those Weinmanns (and hope I don't encounter problems such as thirdcrank has flagged up - at least on this old thing there's nothing as exotic as brazed-on bosses to get in the way!).
If I don't, that still leaves the hubs/discs questions. As Colin says, the LHT is designed for cantis - I didn't know you could get away with discs on it.
So, unless I fit much bigger forks to take 2" tyres, as irc suggests, we don't have a disc solution yet. The 2¼" tyres on my Salsa Fargo certainly do give nice springing, but I wasn't wanting to put 29-er forks on the Pathfinder; that really would look horrible, and offend my (and Mick's?) aesthetic sensibilities!
And anyway, even the Fargo (as an "adventure tourer") has BB7 Mtn discs. What sort of road bikes do fit the BB Road variants? More to the point what forks do they use, and do these permit using tyres as small as 35mm, rather than relying on balloons to provide their suspension?
Apols by the way, if anyone thinks them due, for horning in so heavily on iron-clover's thread, but converting from 27" to 700c in general does involve these other considerations too, so I am assuming iron-clover is having to think about these also.

GavinC
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby GavinC » 10 Nov 2010, 3:51pm

greendragon wrote:Thanks Gavin, yes the name 'Lenton' popped into my mind after I'd gone to bed - funny how the brain does such things! That said, the Lenton was really popular for several years around that time - there must have been tens (or hundreds?) of thousands of them around, and I'm sure they must have been available across the whole range of frame sizes. So perhaps it was the smaller sizes that came on 26" wheels. Certainly this 22½" frame Pathfinder has always ridden the old 'bog-standard' 27x1¼ tyres.


26x1 1/4 was in fact the bog standard size for sportier bikes in the 50's and 27" was the new(er) kid on the block I believe. As I said though, 27" was an option on Lentons/Pathfinders/Humber Clippers - perhaps it was standard on later models? In any case, as you know, there's loads of clearance and I shouldn't think you'll have any difficulty in using 70x35mm tyres.

Another thing to consider though is that the forks on these old Raleigh bikes (and their clones) were spaced at 90mm rather than today's 100mm, and the dropouts were designed for special Raleigh hubs. So you'll need to cold set the forks and file out the dropouts to fit a modern hub. Sheldon Brown has loads of info about this as usual http://www.sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html

Gavin

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby hubgearfreak » 10 Nov 2010, 5:06pm

spark303 wrote:As I said though, 27" was an option on Lentons/Pathfinders/Humber Clippers - perhaps it was standard on later models?


aashta :wink:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleig ... ohler.html

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531colin
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby 531colin » 10 Nov 2010, 10:50pm

Suddenly occurred to me that I had pictures. Here is the bike a had a fight to get the canti brake blocks low enough when fitting 700c wheels. (frame built for 27") Image

And here is the brake boss measurement Image

.......Image

greendragon
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby greendragon » 11 Nov 2010, 8:32pm

Thanks again, Gavin and hubgearfreak. That info from the Sheldon site is fascinating. My old heap is a 1957 model "Pathfinder Phase III". I always wondered where the phase III bit came from - it was obviously the Rudge equivalent of the Lenton's Marque III. Even tho', despite many model changes, none appear to have been designated "Marque II". :?

But I also didn't know that 27" wheels had such a short lifetime, and were such a "new thing" in 1957 - I just assumed they'd been around 'for ever'. I didn't realise that everything in the UK up til then had been on 26", apart from the occasional policeman cruising past on a 28" monster! [Nobody except the 'continentals' had ever heard of 700c, of course, and certainly I don't think anyone seriously imported their bikes. ( 'Far East', did I hear someone say??!!! :lol: ) Of course we still had manufacturing industries in this country in those days.]

As regards, the feasibility of converting to discs, the 'old hands' on here will be relieved to hear that I have finally switched my brain on and found the thread, << Does anyone know ...?/Wheels / rim or disc brakes >>, where the issue was discussed back at the beginning of October. And quite comprehensively enough to answer my questions too.

Though that appears to be the end of the good news on that front. There seem to be just the three disc-equipped tourers on the market, all of which appear to be fitted with rather rigid forks, which (even worse) all appear to be 'OEM' types unavailable for retail purchase. [Even the Kona's are specced as a type 'P2TB' which is presumably a 'Touring Bike' version to distinguish it from the widely available 'P2MTB' ] Doing a Google search, I can't find either those or the slightly raked ones on the Edinburgh Country Explorer listed anywhere.
Perhaps when I get the time [whatever one of those might be :? ] I'll have to contact Edinburgh Bike Co-op to find out how (if at all) it might be possible to acquire a set from them. I don't know what are the chances, even as an existing Salsa owner, of blagging a set of Vaya forks from them, but the potential transatlantic hassle alone makes that an unattractive project!

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby hubgearfreak » 11 Nov 2010, 9:05pm

greendragon wrote:I don't know if hubgearfreak was also being flippant with his:

Mick F wrote: It's surprising how much bigger 27" is compared to 700c.

. . .
hubgearfreak wrote:of course mick may have a point if you use stupidly narrow (20-25) tyres. 35-622 look fine :D


i wasn't being flippant. just stating the obvious really, that if you replace 32-630 tyres with 20-622, then it will look daft. if you use 35-622, it won't

of course, unless you're a 10 stone athlete at the peak age of performance, 20mm tyres look daft anyhow - i'm sorry if i've offended any potbellied middle aged chaps on super-lightwieghts, but someone needs to tell you :wink:


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Mick F
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby Mick F » 11 Nov 2010, 10:06pm

No offence, Hubbers!

Funny, but why do folk think that I'm uncomfortable on narrow tyres?
Surely, the bike, the frame geometry, the design of the tyres, the rider positioning, and the sort of roads all come into this?

Anyway, all that is the subject of another thread somewhere.
Mick F. Cornwall

greendragon
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby greendragon » 12 Nov 2010, 12:12am

Needless to say, hubgear, I wasn't intending any criticism either - indeed I went on to agree with both you and Mick. But you made the point jokingly, and, while I thought it probably was an example of 'many a true word spoken in jest', I wanted to divert it into a serious development of the discussion. Apols if I didn't make that clear.

Thanks for the Ison link Colin. I was just mulling over this little prob while having a coffee, wondering what Salsa spares Ison carries over here, and if Vaya forks would be among them; when I suddenly realised that I had forgotten to include in my last message a sentence to indicate my awareness that the 3 forks I did know about were not only probably unobtainable but also almost certainly the wrong headsize anyway. And that I'd therefore better logon again PDQ to add this note. (That was some time ago, as this is the third attempt to get it past the server to post it - I really must remember to save these things on a separate notepad so I don't lose them when my mobile internet connection has a 'funny five minutes'.)

I see the Vaya forks aren't there on the Ison site, but that may just be because it's a relatively new model. I expect they'll turn up before long, but it's academic anyway if they're the wrong size. More encouragingly I see some of the others come in 1" as well as 1 1/8". I must investigate further.

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hubgearfreak
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Re: Putting 700C wheel on 27" wheel frame

Postby hubgearfreak » 12 Nov 2010, 10:47am

Mick F wrote:Funny, but why do folk think that I'm uncomfortable on narrow tyres?


they may be acceptable, but you'd be comfier still on 32s :wink: