New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

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ferrit worrier
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New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby ferrit worrier » 4 Apr 2011, 7:33pm

I can only think I got somthing wrong with this one!

I built a new rear wheel to replace my existing one due to; a) rim wear and b) I needed a new set of cones. the new cones were not to expensive (Shimano Tiagra) but a complete new hub was only a few quid extra complete with a new free hub. New set of spokes and off we go. Built the wheel cross three same as the old, spoke tension appeared the same. Saturday afternoon I swopped out the wheels had a ride round local all ok. This morning I set off for work 6am out onto the main road still ok. I got about a mile from home and the wheel was wobbling all over the place! all the spokes were loose.

IMG_0002.JPG


could it be that I just hadn't tightend them enough in thte first place?
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Wildduck
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby Wildduck » 4 Apr 2011, 7:40pm

Just had this happen to a twenty year old wheel. Been fine for years but hadn't been ridden for a year. Went to take it out when I noticed all the spokes in the rear wheel had slackened off.

Short of a poltegeist, I'm lost to how this could have happened.......
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Mick F
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby Mick F » 4 Apr 2011, 8:19pm

How odd!

Is this the wheel you built some months ago? If not, how are they?

The only way a set of spokes can come lose, is for the nipples to undo. This is odd - as I said, so I have no advice other than to tighten them again and try once more to see what happens.
Mick F. Cornwall

snibgo
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby snibgo » 4 Apr 2011, 8:22pm

I've never built wheels, so I ask just out of curiosity: did you oil or grease the spoke threads? Is there oil/grease between the nipples and rim?

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ferrit worrier
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby ferrit worrier » 4 Apr 2011, 8:47pm

Mick F wrote:How odd!

Is this the wheel you built some months ago? If not, how are they?

The only way a set of spokes can come lose, is for the nipples to undo. This is odd - as I said, so I have no advice other than to tighten them again and try once more to see what happens.


This is a new wheel, I buit it about 3/4 weeks ago andwas going to wait until May before using it but looking at the wear on the existing rim I decided to change it early. it is exactly the same spec Chrina rigida rim, Shimano Tiagra hub SS double butted spokes. I've just been out and finished re truing it and checked the spoke tension by "Pinging" a spoke on the old rim and then pinging a spoke on the new rim, the new rim is higher pitched, on both sides. The drive side is also higher than the none drive side.

The wheels that are on at the moment are the set I built at the end of 2009 so have done over 15 months. Whilst it might not sound at lot I do a hard commute each day and hammer the brakes I'd probably get away with another couple of months of touring but there is quite a bit of rim wear. Actually I'll go and measure it ... I'll just reply to Snibgo then nip out :D

Malc
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ferrit worrier
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby ferrit worrier » 4 Apr 2011, 8:49pm

snibgo wrote:I've never built wheels, so I ask just out of curiosity: did you oil or grease the spoke threads? Is there oil/grease between the nipples and rim?


The wheels were assembled dry then a drop of oil placed into the nipple hole before truing.

Malc
Percussive maintainance, if it don't fit, hit it with the hammer.

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CREPELLO
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby CREPELLO » 4 Apr 2011, 8:56pm

FW - did you stress relieve and release spoke wind up?

snibgo wrote:I've never built wheels, so I ask just out of curiosity: did you oil or grease the spoke threads? Is there oil/grease between the nipples and rim?

Grease the drive side spokes of a rear wheel, but leave dry the non drive side ones. I use vaseline - pleasant to use and doesn't creep over the rims for months afterwards like oil. (In fact to use oil in conjunction with cloth rim tapes is dangerous! I had a spontaneous blow-out due to the oil seeping into the tape. Of course, it softened the tube rubber. I'm glad it happened in the house and not on the road :shock: I might add that I didn't build these wheels)

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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby CREPELLO » 4 Apr 2011, 8:59pm

ferrit worrier wrote:
snibgo wrote:I've never built wheels, so I ask just out of curiosity: did you oil or grease the spoke threads? Is there oil/grease between the nipples and rim?


The wheels were assembled dry then a drop of oil placed into the nipple hole before truing.

Malc

I would grease the relevant spoke wells in the rim with a cotton wool bud, as well as doing the spoke threads.

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ferrit worrier
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby ferrit worrier » 4 Apr 2011, 9:07pm

New rim measured accross the middle of the braking surface .......19.235mm
Old rim measured same place but due to wear and ridges it will be less .....18.4mm

Malc

Wildduck, nice to see you back :) not heard from you for a while. hows the "Duck" Anatidae family :)
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ferrit worrier
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby ferrit worrier » 4 Apr 2011, 9:12pm

CREPELLO wrote:FW - did you stress relieve and release spoke wind up?

snibgo wrote:I've never built wheels, so I ask just out of curiosity: did you oil or grease the spoke threads? Is there oil/grease between the nipples and rim?

Grease the drive side spokes of a rear wheel, but leave dry the non drive side ones. I use vaseline - pleasant to use and doesn't creep over the rims for months afterwards like oil. (In fact to use oil in conjunction with cloth rim tapes is dangerous! I had a spontaneous blow-out due to the oil seeping into the tape. Of course, it softened the tube rubber. I'm glad it happened in the house and not on the road :shock: I might add that I didn't build these wheels)


Squeezed the spokes in pairs then removed the wheel from the jig. placed the hub on a stool then pushed down on the rim, all round and turned it over then repeated.

Malc
Percussive maintainance, if it don't fit, hit it with the hammer.

gilesjuk
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby gilesjuk » 4 Apr 2011, 9:22pm

Not enough tension to prevent the nipples from turning. As the wheel rotates the top spokes are under tension and the bottom ones aren't. I suspect the lack of tension meant the bottom ones came loose.

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CREPELLO
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby CREPELLO » 4 Apr 2011, 9:31pm

Squeezed the spokes in pairs then removed the wheel from the jig. placed the hub on a stool then pushed down on the rim, all round and turned it over then repeated.

In which case I am as in the dark as you are. When you set of on their maiden voyage did you hear any spokes pinging. I remember the first decent (or so I imagined) set of wheels I bought years ago from Gearshift. On my first trip on them I was surprised to hear lots of pinging for the first hundred yards or so. I presume the spokes weren't 'unwound', although I don't recall the wheels going very much out of true.

Thinking about my advice on greasing (and it's what I tell myself to do too!), perhaps the greasing of the eyelet wells isn't necessary. It's the spoke threads that are obviously the critical point of resistance in wind up. I don't know where I picked that idea up from.

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Mick F
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby Mick F » 4 Apr 2011, 9:37pm

Wheels ping.

If you get hold of the spokes after many many many miles, you'll hear them click/ping. They wear where they cross, therefore they move and flex in use. Pull them in pairs and hear them click or even ping.
Mick F. Cornwall

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531colin
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby 531colin » 4 Apr 2011, 9:38pm

They never get tighter with riding............

This is the "full monty" treatment to prevent spokes slackening off on customer's wheels (you may not feel inclined to do all these steps on your own wheels....after all, its easy to tighten your own). Its pointless doing this until the spokes are almost up to tension.
With a light hammer and a punch derived from a joiner's nail punch, punch the spoke heads into the hub flange. Use just enough clout to set the heads flush to the flange.(Look carefully....some of them won't be!) Support the opposite hub flange on a bit of wood with a hole the right size, which is different for front and rear!
Grasp pairs of spokes and squeeze, hard. It hurts your hands.
It then takes roughly one half turn to get the tension back where it was.

If you dont do this, your spokes will fairly soon do it themselves, and be one half turn slacker. Then, if they were not properly tight in the first place, they can now be slack enough when under load for the nipples to be free to turn.

Wind up isn't a huge problem, they "ping" themselves as you ride.
I oil all the rim eyelets except the rear non driveside, otherwise winding on the tension hurts my hands, too.

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cycleruk
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Re: New wheel...Rapid loss of spoke tension

Postby cycleruk » 4 Apr 2011, 9:44pm

As I reported a bit back, I had "one spoke" come loose a few times.
Re-tensioned said spoke and also went round putting a bit more into all the others - no prob's since.
Felt as if I had enough tension originally but obviously not.
The only thing of note was it was a re-used rim with new spokes and hub. :?:
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