Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

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kazmark
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Joined: 3 May 2009, 9:03am

Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby kazmark » 4 Jul 2011, 9:10pm

We have bought 2 charge Mixer 11 bikes, which we really like BUT what we didn't notice when we test rode them round the shop carpark before we bought them was that there is quite a bit of toe overlap. It is quite hilly where we live and we first noticed it going up a short sharp hill when we zig zagged across and if your foot is at 3 o'clock & the wheel is turned it nearly knocks you off. We have also nearly been flipped off coming out of a sharp right hand junction as was concentrating on where traffic was and forgot to check foot position. We have cut off the bottom of the the front mudguard (annoying) but still just clipping the tyre. When we contacted Charge we were told it was probably the toe clips we had put on, but even if we put SPD's on we would still have the same problem. We are thinking of changing the forks to have a curve/rake on, but when we contacted the shop we bought them from today we were told it would probably make it handle like a barge (will phone again to speak to the mechanic when he is back in a few days as we mentioned this to him last week and he didn't seem to think it a problem). We are only using them for leisure riding/light touring, not racing about on - does anyone have any thoughts on this, or come across this themselves? Any comments appreciated.

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meic
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Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby meic » 4 Jul 2011, 9:19pm

While toe overlap is a bad thing and best avoided, I have a bike which I have had for 6 years and done 18,000 miles on which has an enormous amount of toe overlap.
I have never had an accident because of it and soon learnt how to live with it and no longer think about it.
I did have an occasion when I had to do an emergency turn of the bars at just the wrong time and I did pull my mudguard stays out of their clamps but it didnt have much effect in comparison to the initial problem that made me hit the wheel in the first place.

In short if you stick with the bikes you will soon get used to it and even forget about it.

I was given the bike in question but when I got round to my next bike, enough space to prevent toe overlap was on the list of features demanded.
Yma o Hyd

mark a.
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Location: Surrey

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby mark a. » 4 Jul 2011, 10:47pm

My bike has toe overlap, and that's also designed for off-road (it's a semi-CX bike).

You quickly get used to it. It would be a big problem if it was a fixed-gear bikes, but you've got the luxury of gears on yours.

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531colin
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby 531colin » 4 Jul 2011, 11:15pm

Get used to toe overlap?
I can't imagine getting used to not having toe overlap!
Fancy having a bike where you can just turn the handlebars willy-nilly, regardless of where the pedal is! The thought of it is positively repugnant.
And toe overlap is so useful!
I'm off to start a society for the preservation of toe overlap....if I can get Prince Charles to be patron, it'll be a Royal society, won't it?

(I'm not having a go at the 2 previous posters, who are simply making the best of the bad job the bike "designers" have done....its the "designers" I take issue with.)

reohn2
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby reohn2 » 4 Jul 2011, 11:34pm

It depends how much overlap there is,one of the tandems has a bit (maybe 10mm at most) which I can cope with OK but if it were 25mm or more I wouldn't be too happy.
IMHO on anything but a race bike T/O shouldn't be there at all unless the bike is either too small in the top tube or the rider has enormous feet and or exessively long cranks.
FWIW I ride 175 cranks and take 46(11) shoes!
BTW how much overlap is there?
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snibgo
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby snibgo » 4 Jul 2011, 11:55pm

I hadn't even heard of toe overlap until last year. When I discovered how awful it was, I immediately scrapped my 20-years old beloved but dangerous bike.

I'm joking, of course: I haven't scrapped the bike.

I can see that TO isn't good for riders who aren't used to it. If I was getting a new bike, I wouldn't want TO, but it wouldn't be a deal-breaker.

Ugly
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Ugly » 5 Jul 2011, 5:27pm

My fixed bike has a bit of overlap, never been a problem in 10 years of riding it.

DevonDamo
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby DevonDamo » 5 Jul 2011, 6:30pm

When I bought my current bike and put some toe-clips on, I immediately discovered the toe-overlap. I read a lot of posts on forums pointing out that it was just something that you will get used to, and is an inevitable consequence of having a certain type of frame geometry.

Well I just didn't like it, and hated losing the freedom to do carefree track-standing and zig-zagging up slopes. In the end I just swapped my toe-clips for shorter ones and that solved it. It's even improved the placing of the ball of my foot on the pedal, so win-win.

If you've got a good bike shop, bring yours in and size up what's available. I was looking at those nice-looking steel SKS half-clips, which don't have any straps. I was considering a pair of these, but my local shop sorted me out with some cheapo plastic ones which have done the job, so never bothered in the end.

kazmark
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Joined: 3 May 2009, 9:03am

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby kazmark » 5 Jul 2011, 8:30pm

Thanks for all replies and comments so far. Seems some of you aren't that bothered by the overlap and some, like us, are. Would be interested if anyone has any comments regarding our thoughts on changing the forks for some with a bit of a curve/rake.

gilesjuk
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008, 10:10pm

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby gilesjuk » 5 Jul 2011, 8:46pm

Changing the forks may affect the handling.

You could fit shorter cranks, but if they're 170mm already then it might get a bit hard to pedal :)

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531colin
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby 531colin » 5 Jul 2011, 9:07pm

Increasing the fork offset (rake) will decrease the steering trail and make the steering more twitchy.
Increasing the fork length (axle to crown race seat) will reduce the head angle, increase trail, and make the steering more relaxed.
I have insufficient information to do anything really useful....

Image

The head angle varies with size from 70 to 73 deg.. We are not told what the fork offset is for any size. (The fork blades are straight, but angled forward from the fork crown)
Just for comparison, a head angle of 71 deg might be paired with an offset of 54mm or thereabouts for a relaxed-handling tourer.
.............For an audax style bike brighter handling is usual, a head angle of 72deg may be paired with an offset of 45 mm. (the usual offset for carbon forks)
........... (assuming 700c wheels)

drossall
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby drossall » 5 Jul 2011, 11:52pm

I've never worried about overlap.

Michael R
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Michael R » 6 Jul 2011, 7:39am

I never worried about it until I got a Cube in April and had mudguards fitted. With the overlap it was lethal to ride. I returned it and got another bike. A women bought the same bike the same day and took it back as well.

The LBS were very good about it

It is simply irresponsible design to make a frame with mudguard eyes with toe overlap.

However many bikes are designed as fashion accessories and not as bicycles

thirdcrank
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby thirdcrank » 6 Jul 2011, 7:52am

drossall wrote:I've never worried about overlap.


Ditto, but others do and I suspect that the riders who are most likely to buy a bike without noticing it in the shop, are those who will wish they had. On that basis, it's the sort of thing a decent lbs should alert customers about when advising on the choice of bike, which might in turn lead them to decide not to stock the bikes with this feature.

In the meantime, I've checked our Kenwood mixer - definitely no toe overlap and it does have some safety features to keep fingers out when it's going. :wink:

reohn2
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby reohn2 » 6 Jul 2011, 8:58am

Looking at the dimensions chart Colin posted those top tube lengths are on the short side IMO for an everyday bike like the Mixer,15mm longer and a 15mm shorter stem could have made all to difference.
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