Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
Michael R
Posts: 768
Joined: 9 Jul 2008, 10:40pm

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Michael R » 11 Jul 2011, 4:42pm

snibgo wrote:
531colin wrote:So, if you were doing a U turn in a narrow lane (as Martin and I are discussing) you would do half pedal strokes to keep your foot clear of the wheel.

That's what I often do.

Quite often, when manoevering at low speed (speeds low enough that I want to turn the bars that far), I won't be pedalling at all, but scooting one foot on the ground.



Try doing that on a sharp bend joining a road and at about 1 in 7.

And all this because of the stupidity of some cycle manufacturers

MartinC
Posts: 1837
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby MartinC » 11 Jul 2011, 5:29pm

Ah, OK - the scenario where you're trying to negotiate a very tight turn on a 1 in 4 in traffic is definitely going to be challenging! Having to keep pressure on the pedals limits your options and also makes unclipping harder. You could easily argue that being clipped in was part of the hazard too (similarly riding fixed). These situations are always difficult anyway - there are some places where the slope or camber of the road at a junction can make it very hard either to stop or start anyway. Fortunately they aren't common for most of us although, clearly, they're everyday occurrences for some. I can understand this one but it's quite an extreme example and I'd argue that hard cases make bad law.

The disussion about "ratchetting" is interesting. In my experience it's rare (i.e. it's never happened to me!) that you need to keep the wheel at the angle that causes TO - normally it's passing through. At speed you're only moving the wheel a small amount if at all. In the U turn scenario you'll have the wheel well beyond the TO zone. So for me it just means backing off the pedal momentarily to let the wheel through if it strikes, or delaying the wheel turn at that point to let the pedal through. It's all slow stuff so it doesn't require any reflex speed but may be I'm too phlegmatic.

All good stuff - the tight turn, 1 in 4, traffic scenario I can see. May be there's more.

niggle
Posts: 3237
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby niggle » 11 Jul 2011, 5:40pm

I also do the ratcheting thing on occasion to get round a really tight corner, having had overlap on many big wheel bikes through my life, including my Dawes Windsor touring bike bought new circa 1981, which had 27x1 1/4" wheels and a 19" frame. If when turning at low speed my shoe touches the mudguard I instinctively turn the pedals back and take it from there.

If there is too much gradient to use the ratcheting technique, such as in the instance Mick F describes, it is time to get off and push it round, and this has only caused a problem a couple of times soon after adopting SPDs when unclipping speed was less than perfect and I started to topple over. Fortunately managed to get out just in time. Another use for ratcheting when I was a kid was for getting across a large puddle where momentum was not enough to carry you across and you wanted to avoid getting your trainers wet.

It is really no big deal for me personally, but I totally agree that it is potentially dangerous to a novice, or someone who has been fortunate enough to have not met it before, due to their height making it unlikely with most frames of the correct size for them. For that reason I think that legislation could probably do with being made more robust, at least for bikes other than road racing designs, and there possibly should be some sort of warning label and statutory giving of advice by the seller in the case of road bikes with tight clearance.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12529
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby 531colin » 11 Jul 2011, 6:30pm

I might be able to post a couple of uphill tight turns where I can get a mudguard-kicking moment......within a mile of each other!
Depends how obliging Google Earth's little man is!

First a right turn onto Farnley lane, used by the local clubs for hillclimbs, up to the mast at Norwood edge.....http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.952474,-1.678634&ll=53.952523,-1.678537&spn=0,0.002631&sll=53.951717,-1.679192&sspn=0.012097,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.952518,-1.678365&panoid=snrAc-QJ1UUZEBBectC3Yw&cbp=12,290.63,,0,0

A left turn onto the same road, just down the hill a bit....steeper and sharper turning.....http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.949267,-1.682432&ll=53.949261,-1.682668&spn=0,0.005262&sll=53.952348,-1.678891&sspn=0.012223,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.949303,-1.682823&panoid=Jhm9loof4kgqPgGltKLMOA&cbp=12,82.49,,0,0.92

And lastly, this one is just a bend in the lane...http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.949267,-1.682432&ll=53.955682,-1.702023&spn=0,0.02105&sll=53.952348,-1.678891&sspn=0.012223,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.955619,-1.701937&panoid=gK2knQYFTC0UMPLzeVLIQQ&cbp=12,354.77,,0,0

Its wicked steep around there, the camera seems to flatten it out!

niggle
Posts: 3237
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby niggle » 11 Jul 2011, 6:59pm


reohn2
Posts: 36748
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby reohn2 » 11 Jul 2011, 7:26pm

I think its fair to say that some people don't mind TO,some do (me included).I've had bikes with TO in the past and lived with it but I don't see why I should if I don't have too, It can be potentially dangerous in the right circumstances so if something is potentially dangerous and can be designed out with no loss to handling characteristics then why should anyone have to live with it? :?
IMO theres a world away from high mileage "savvy" cyclists who know the ins and outs of riding technique and occasional w/end warriors,family type cyclists and new to cycling types etc, but whatever the level of experience the safer the bike the better IMO.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

niggle
Posts: 3237
Joined: 11 Mar 2009, 10:29pm
Location: Cornwall, near England

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby niggle » 11 Jul 2011, 8:09pm

531colin wrote:I might be able to post a couple of uphill tight turns where I can get a mudguard-kicking moment......within a mile of each other!
Depends how obliging Google Earth's little man is!

First a right turn onto Farnley lane, used by the local clubs for hillclimbs, up to the mast at Norwood edge.....http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.952474,-1.678634&ll=53.952523,-1.678537&spn=0,0.002631&sll=53.951717,-1.679192&sspn=0.012097,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.952518,-1.678365&panoid=snrAc-QJ1UUZEBBectC3Yw&cbp=12,290.63,,0,0

A left turn onto the same road, just down the hill a bit....steeper and sharper turning.....http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.949267,-1.682432&ll=53.949261,-1.682668&spn=0,0.005262&sll=53.952348,-1.678891&sspn=0.012223,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.949303,-1.682823&panoid=Jhm9loof4kgqPgGltKLMOA&cbp=12,82.49,,0,0.92

And lastly, this one is just a bend in the lane...http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.949267,-1.682432&ll=53.955682,-1.702023&spn=0,0.02105&sll=53.952348,-1.678891&sspn=0.012223,0.0421&num=1&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.955619,-1.701937&panoid=gK2knQYFTC0UMPLzeVLIQQ&cbp=12,354.77,,0,0

Its wicked steep around there, the camera seems to flatten it out!

Wow, just looked at the map views and realise by some freaky coincidence I was in that very area only a few weeks ago! I had a 3 day conference for work at the Britannia Hotel in Bramhope, travelling up by train on Sunday 22nd May, so I brought my folder with me to get from station to hotel and so I could escape in the evenings. On the Monday evening I rode up via Pool, Leathley Lane, Farnley Park, Farnley Lane, across Lindley Wood Reservoir, on and down in to Fewston and across Swinsty Reservoir. Some fabulous roads and views with a couple of quite steep and sustained climbs in the middle. The wind was really strong that day and I was blown about a fair bit, up near Fewston but still on the main road the telephone wires were howling and bowing and stretching across the road, I probably should have turned back but it was quite elating really.

EDIT: just to add that the folder has yards of toe clearance due to its 451mm wheels.

User avatar
531colin
Posts: 12529
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby 531colin » 11 Jul 2011, 8:26pm

I would normally say drop in for a cuppa, but I was away......High Cup Nick, May 24th.......

...Image

Nice up there if you get the weather.....the driving sleet came later!

thirdcrank
Posts: 28684
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Jul 2011, 8:36pm

I can see that turning at really slow speed is the time when the descending (ie front) pedal might touch the mudguard or tyre. Where I've lost the explanation is riding up a very steep hill with a corner. I thought that the exaggerated movemnent of the front wheel was through the really heavy pedalling - for anybody anybody who can twiddle up, a corner on a hill is not much different from a similar corner on the flat. Even when really struggling, I'd always try to keep the steering steady because it's a waste of effort to rock and roll, but it's my impression that the bike will steer towards the pedal on the downward stroke and the back of the wheel will be opposite the pedal going up. (ie as the left pedal goes down, steering tends to be towards the left, and vice versa) I should have thought, without any intention of trying it out, that anybody pushing really hard on either pedal while steering the opposite way would have a pretty good chance of coming to grief, with or without toe overlap. :?

drossall
Posts: 4616
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby drossall » 11 Jul 2011, 9:00pm

On really steep corners, you'd go around the outside, reducing both the gradient and the tightness of turn :evil:

User avatar
patricktaylor
Posts: 2299
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 11:20am
Location: Winter Hill
Contact:

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby patricktaylor » 11 Jul 2011, 9:22pm

niggle wrote:... some sort of warning label and statutory giving of advice by the seller in the case of road bikes with tight clearance.

Hmmm... bicycles with warning labels. What would the label say? And the seller's advice?

My feelings about all this ('tis an interesting thread) are that purist designers will naturally see toe overlap as a design defect. On the drawing board it may appear so, and offend the designer, but the reality is large numbers of road bicycles in the UK enjoyed with a degree of toe overlap and - unless someone knows to the contrary - no catalogue of accidents caused by it. Of course it's possible to devise theoretical circumstances that might lead to serious incidents but unless they do actually occur, warning labels will do more harm than good. Warning labels might as well be put on SPD pedals - they are at least a known cause of falling off.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 47058
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Mick F » 11 Jul 2011, 9:26pm

drossall wrote:On really steep corners, you'd go around the outside, reducing both the gradient and the tightness of turn :evil:

Not always possible, but I agree with you in principle, but on the entrance to our drive it is impossible to go any further to make the arc more gentle.

I cannot show on Google Maps, because the camera thingy didn't/couldn't get up our lane.
Mick F. Cornwall

User avatar
patricktaylor
Posts: 2299
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 11:20am
Location: Winter Hill
Contact:

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby patricktaylor » 11 Jul 2011, 9:35pm

Great photo of High Cup Nick BTW 531colin.

drossall
Posts: 4616
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby drossall » 11 Jul 2011, 10:22pm

Just going back a bit, the warning label would be dependent on the length of cranks fitted. The position is clearer for complete bikes, but otherwise it would be full of ifs and buts.

LollyKat
Posts: 2891
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby LollyKat » 11 Jul 2011, 11:45pm

Nah, you just need a label somewhere on all bikes saying: "Warning - this bicycle may have Toe Overlap, depending on the model of machine, the size of your feet and how you place them on the pedals."

A bit like "This product may contain nuts."

:)