Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

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Edwards
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Edwards » 12 Jul 2011, 5:54am

LollyKat wrote:A bit like "This product may contain nuts


I recently bought a packet of peanuts that had the warning "Produced in a factory that prepares other nuts"

I have noticed that it is mostly the people that can avoid TO on their choice of bike that are the ones saying how bad it is.
Some of us realise that there will be this feature for the type of bike purchased and are not bothered at all. I am sure a lot of Audax and Sportive riders know about TO when they purchased the bike.
There are some bikes that are supposed to be great but a good percentage of the riding population will never find out, as the suppliers will only produce in larger sizes to avoid to avoid TO.
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531colin
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby 531colin » 12 Jul 2011, 6:58am

Edwards wrote:....................
I recently bought a packet of peanuts that had the warning "Produced in a factory that prepares other nuts"........


There may be consumers who can eat peanuts, but are allergic to other nuts....trace quantities from cross contamination can be a problem.

Edwards wrote:...............
I have noticed that it is mostly the people that can avoid TO on their choice of bike that are the ones saying how bad it is..........


Unsurprising really. If you own bikes without overlap, you notice it when you ride a bike with overlap.
Unsurprisingly, I have noticed people who (say they) can't find a bike without overlap, also say overlap is no problem.

Edwards wrote:...............
Some of us realise that there will be this feature for the type of bike purchased and are not bothered at all. I am sure a lot of Audax and Sportive riders know about TO when they purchased the bike......................


For "feature" I would read "hazard". As most sorts of bikes, in most sizes, don't have to have overlap, I don't see why your indifference to overlap is a reason I should have to put up with it. You cant just assume anybody who buys a particular type of bike (specially un-tried) is happy to have overlap.

Edwards wrote:................
There are some bikes that are supposed to be great but a good percentage of the riding population will never find out, as the suppliers will only produce in larger sizes to avoid to avoid TO.


That may or may not be the case.
However, this thread was started by somebody who bought 2 STRAIGHT HANDLEBAR bikes, one MEDIUM size, one LARGE, and subsequently found they both have overlap.

The problem is the cycle industry RANDOMLY produces bikes with overlap.

The problem isn't experienced cyclists who want to ride bikes with overlap - as long as I don't have to.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby [XAP]Bob » 12 Jul 2011, 7:50am

Pedal centre to rim edge distance would be easy enough to quote (and easy to adjust for crank length for those who change cranks)

With different sized feet, shoes and different pedalling styles there is no universal toe overlap distance....
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Edwards
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Edwards » 12 Jul 2011, 7:58am

531colin wrote:Unsurprisingly, I have noticed people who (say they) can't find a bike without overlap, also say overlap is no problem.


Can you show me a small framed drop handlebar bike with 700c wheels that does not have this feature?
As this thread was started about straight bared bikes why has there been so much written about drop barred bikes?
Why have you been quoting angles for drop barred bikes?
Not all experienced cyclists want to ride with this feature some of us do not have a choice. If we want to ride a certain type of bike.
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Vorpal
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Vorpal » 12 Jul 2011, 8:14am

Warning. This thread may contain nuts.
:wink: :lol:

531colin wrote:Unsurprising really. If you own bikes without overlap, you notice it when you ride a bike with overlap.
Unsurprisingly, I have noticed people who (say they) can't find a bike without overlap, also say overlap is no problem.


I don't think it entirely fair to generalise. Although I have to admit, that my opinion has changed somewhat reading this thread. I hadn't realised the extent to which overlap could be a problem. The first bike I purchased with overlap, I bought without knowing about it, and learned to live with it. I don't get on well with SPDs, so I can always move my foot out of the way, or flip the pedal to get a toe clip out of the way. None of my bikes have overlap to the extent of the OP, and of the two bikes I have with it, one doesn't without mudguards.

Do I like it? No. And there are admittedly some alternatives available to me, but all of them have required either more time or more money than I've had available to me.

531colin wrote:However, this thread was started by somebody who bought 2 STRAIGHT HANDLEBAR bikes, one MEDIUM size, one LARGE, and subsequently found they both have overlap.

The problem is the cycle industry RANDOMLY produces bikes with overlap.

The problem isn't experienced cyclists who want to ride bikes with overlap - as long as I don't have to.


There is no excuse for producing a medium and large bike with toe overlap. However, the problem is not RANDOM. It is almost ubiquitous in smaller frame sizes. Go to a few bike shops and look at some 50 cm frames and you'll see what I mean.
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Edwards
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Edwards » 12 Jul 2011, 9:08am

Vorpal wrote:The first bike I purchased with overlap, I bought without knowing about it, and learned to live with it


Vorpal you have made my point exactly. Especially when you said you did not know there was a problem until told so.
Know that you know I assume you will be avoiding this. Unfortunately some people (especially women I have read) are not able to do this easily.

The OP did make one very important remark, that has been missed in the discussion about frame angles and finding pictures of where the just might be a problem.
It was the post about giving bikes a proper test not just a whiz around the car park.
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reohn2
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby reohn2 » 12 Jul 2011, 9:36am

Edwards wrote:
Vorpal wrote:The first bike I purchased with overlap, I bought without knowing about it, and learned to live with it


Vorpal you have made my point exactly. Especially when you said you did not know there was a problem until told so.........


Or the possiblity of finding out the hard way,I'm thinking,no knowledge of the problem ignorance is bliss, until someone steps off the curb without looking just as the HGV is passing and the unexperienced unsuspecting ignorant cyclist swerves to avoid the pedal is in the wrong place the balance is compromised ................

Yes its unlikely yes there no guarentee they'll go under the truck and no it doesn't happen everyday but it could happen as a result of bad design,design that could be avoided with no additional cost to the manufacturer.Why,oh why,when something can be avoided so simply do I hear people defending it!!
TO is a fault that can be lived with but if its possible not have it without compromise then why not?
The smallest solo bike I have a medium/large Thorn Audax Mk3 wiith a 570mm top tube, has 28mm tyres,m/guards with 10mm clearance,and 175mm cranks,I wear 46(11's) specialised touring shoes,there no Toe Overlap and its a dream to ride.
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Vorpal » 12 Jul 2011, 9:42am

Edwards wrote:Especially when you said you did not know there was a problem until told so.


Where did I say that?

When I bought my first bike with overlap, I did it without knowing because it didn't have overlap until I fitted mudguards and toeclips. I tested the bike without either, bought the bike and had the shop fit the toeclips. Then, in the following autumn, I fitted mudguards. It simply never occured to me to fit mudguards and toeclips for testing it.

My other bike with overlap, I tested without either of the above, then when I was satisfied that I liked the bike, I had toe clips fitted and tried it again. I then bought the bike knowing that with toeclips it has some overlap.

This thread has made me re-examine the situation. And when I looked more carefully at my bikes, I realised that if I used SPDs, I probably wouldn't have any overlap. Maybe those clipless things have some redeeming qualities after all :wink:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Edwards
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Edwards » 12 Jul 2011, 9:48am

I am not defending toe overlap but am pointing out that in some sizes it is unavoidable.
We can all come up with scenarios when there could be a problem, but it leaves me wondering just how many bikes have this and when there has been problems noted to do with it.
I keep asking myself a question, if it is so dangerous why have the manufactures not done a product recall and why are people still purchasing these bikes?
I have said my reasons for purchasing such a machine.

Vorpal sorry that I misunderstood you, you did however say "I bought without knowing". It was this that lead to my mistake again I appologise for this.
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mark a.
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby mark a. » 12 Jul 2011, 11:27am

reohn2 wrote:TO is a fault that can be lived with but if its possible not have it without compromise then why not?


I'm not clear how TO can be avoided without compromise. Is it really just stupid / lazy designers or the fashion to copy TdF riders?

Why do TdF bikes have TO?
Can you really get rid of TO without compromises? (Let's just consider medium and large bikes. I know smaller frames are much harder to deal with.)

As you can tell, I don't have enough understanding of bike geometry. All I know is that I really like the way my bike handles, so don't mind a bit of TO when I have mudguards on.

Moodyman1

Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Moodyman1 » 12 Jul 2011, 12:11pm

I've got a Charge Mixer with full length mudguards and size 12 feet. Toe overlap isn't that big an issue for me.

It only occurs when I'm turning at sharp angles which I take at slow speeds anyway.

Rounds bends, I keep the pedals at 6 and 12 o'clock positions. It makes me think about my riding which is a good thing in my opinion.

With regards to bike design, I don't think there's been any shortcoming by Charge. The bike has been designed with a tight track-like geometry and this reduces the overall wheelbase - I have to use small panniers to avoid heel contact (with larger ones).

I simply think the OP has bought the wrong bike for his/her needs. This is a bike designed for urban commuting (sharper handling in and out of traffic) not touring.

Incidentally, I have several other bikes that I ride at the weekend (without TO) and find it perfectly easy coming off them and using the Mixer Mon-Fri.
Last edited by Moodyman1 on 12 Jul 2011, 12:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

Edwards
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Edwards » 12 Jul 2011, 12:18pm

reohn2 wrote:TO is a fault that can be lived with but if its possible not have it without compromise then why not

Agreed
I have absolutely no idea why it is there in larger sizes. I do think that the purchaser should have some clear and simple information about how to avoid this if possible for the type of bike being purchased.
I do however do feel toe overlap is not the demon it is being made out to be.

One thing I have learnt is that it is best to get an extended test of the bike if you can. Spa and SJS are the only places that I know off that will let you do this.
Does anybody know any more places?

I have edited this for a mistake that has some people confused.
Last edited by Edwards on 12 Jul 2011, 3:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby patricktaylor » 12 Jul 2011, 12:29pm

Moodyman1 wrote:I've got a Charge Mixer ... With regards to bike design, I don't think there's been any shortcoming by Charge. The bike has been designed with a tight track-like geometry and this reduces the overall wheelbase ...

Says it all. The Charge Mixer is an instant response traffic jam blaster, just perfect for mixing it up in gridlocked traffic, which is presumably why it's been deliberately designed with a short wheelbase. Nothing stupid or lazy about it. Users seem to like it.

Horses for courses.

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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby LollyKat » 12 Jul 2011, 1:19pm

Vorpal wrote:There is no excuse for producing a medium and large bike with toe overlap. However, the problem is not RANDOM. It is almost ubiquitous in smaller frame sizes. Go to a few bike shops and look at some 50 cm frames and you'll see what I mean.

Even small sizes don't have to have TO. The Thorn Audax Mk 3 smallest size, 495, doesn't have TO even with 170mm cranks, although I think a lot of riders this small might prefer 165mm or 160mm. See their brochure (pdf), page 7.

It obviously bothers some people more than others -- the problem is that many first-time buyers won't find out which way they fall ( :wink: ) until it is too late. It would be nice if shop assistants could alert customers to check for TO, and to encourage them to try slow tight U-turns as well as a whizz round the car park. It's not going to happen, though.

Personally TO is the last thing I want when "mixing it up in gridlocked traffic" but that's just me. Considered manoeuvres are one thing but I have occasionally had to pull off some stunts in emergencies that simply might not have worked with TO.

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Re: Toe Overlap on Charge Mixer

Postby Michael R » 12 Jul 2011, 2:00pm

i went out for 10 miles before breakfast. TO would have been a problem at least 4 times, excluding going out of my drive. 3 of these were on a hill so I could not freewheel

I would bet some fatalities have been caused by TO, one day this will come to light and there will be hell to pay